quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

quote: techne
though it's good that yustme has you as an advocate. i'm just asking questions...

And I appreciate your questions. But we do see (or should I say hear) things quite differently. I am always amazed when people argue (such as I hear you doing) that we don't/can't know people's hearts as Jesus did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved
If we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, can we not know anything and everything that He knows? Wasn't that what Jesus was showing us when He said He only did what He saw His Father doing? And are we not to do the same? I guess I fully believe (and have found it to be true) that that is His plan for us---the failure is on our part, not spending enough time observing, listening, knowing God. So I believe that if we are truly intimate with the Lord, we WILL know ourselves and others as He knows because He will make these things known to us. And a huge part of this is dying to self, getting the self life out of the way, so that we can hear and understand.

Anyway, that is what the Lord has shown/taught me. The mind of Christ is far greater than most understand it to be.

And BTW, hearing someone's heart is not an 'emotional' thing---it is the same as knowing their heart need or knowing their mind. I use heart in the same way the scripture does I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I guess what disturbs me in this thread is that it is so easy to point out what is perceived as fault in someone -- in this case Yustme, and I am especially pointing at you, Techne. Why? Because you have hounded and pounded it into the ground to the point of absurdity. And while I am pointing my finger at you, three are pointing straight back at me, because there is someone on Crosswalk who really irritates me, whom I find to be extremely mistaken most of the time. And I hounded him until it became ridiculous, then I decided I would no longer answer his posts to me. Perhaps it is time for you to do the same thing.

Same boat, but yours is still rocking.

quote:


quote: Abiyah
I guess what disturbs me in this thread is that it is so easy to point out what is perceived as fault in someone -- in this case Yustme, and I am especially pointing at you, Techne. Why? Because you have hounded and pounded it into the ground to the point of absurdity. And while I am pointing my finger at you, three are pointing straight back at me, because there is someone on Crosswalk who really irritates me, whom I find to be extremely mistaken most of the time. And I hounded him until it became ridiculous, then I decided I would no longer answer his posts to me. Perhaps it is time for you to do the same thing.

Same boat, but yours is still rocking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

quote: Abiyah
I guess what disturbs me in this thread is that it is so easy to point out what is perceived as fault in someone -- in this case Yustme, and I am especially pointing at you, Techne. Why? Because you have hounded and pounded it into the ground to the point of absurdity. And while I am pointing my finger at you, three are pointing straight back at me, because there is someone on Crosswalk who really irritates me, whom I find to be extremely mistaken most of the time. And I hounded him until it became ridiculous, then I decided I would no longer answer his posts to me. Perhaps it is time for you to do the same thing.

Same boat, but yours is still rocking.

Oh, I do like you, Abiyah. Although I don't see it the same way (I have not perceived techne as pounding or hounding. . . just seeking understanding.), I truly enjoy and love your truthful speaking. You speak truthfully what you are thinking without sounding offensive. Does that make sense? Anyway, I just had to respond to you because I'm so impressed and, yes, envious, of truthspeakers who do it so well. Bless ya! LL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Oh, I do like you, Abiyah. Although I don't see it the same way (I have not perceived techne as pounding or hounding. . . just seeking understanding.), I truly enjoy and love your truthful speaking. You speak truthfully what you are thinking without sounding offensive. Does that make sense? Anyway, I just had to respond to you because I'm so impressed and, yes, envious, of truthspeakers who do it so well. Bless ya! LL

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Yustme,

It sounds like you are saying that if we enjoy worship at all, then we must be doing something wrong. As if enjoying the worship of our Lord constitutes a "fleshly" experience.

Can you point me to a single Scripture that tells us that worship is not to be enjoyable or satisfying to our spirit? Of course it won't be all the time, there's a reason for the phrase "sacrifice of praise or worship", but don't go telling me I'm somehow less than spiritual because I happened to really enjoy the service I was in last Sunday.

In addition, I am a worship leader. I'm on the stage leading people in worship. And gues what? I enjoy it! I love every minute I'm up there. Does that make it wrong? According to your logic, it is. Can you show me Scripturally where I should not enjoy the process of leading others in worship?

quote:

ORIGINAL: yustme

Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Call me crazy (I've been called worse), but I just don't see anything wrong with telling a singer or pastor that they have done a good job.

With singers this is usually through applause, with pastors it's with a good hearty "Amen!" (although I have heard applause during sermons before).

There is nothing unScriptural or less than holy about letting someone know they did good. It is possible to applaud for a well delivered song or an exceptionally profound sermon point without kicking the Holy Spirit out of the service.

There. I said it. Fire away....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

What I learned, as a singer, is that it was not up to the singer necessarily to be filled with the H Spirit but up to the people in general. To me, no matter what the position of the singer in the L-rd, if the listener was in tune with G-d, if the listener was open to hearing from G-d, then G-d spoke, no matter what the singer was. The singer, in my opinion, is blessed according to the position of the heart, and the people listening are blessed according to their positions of their hearts.

This has borne out time and again in my life, as I sang and as I heard others sing (or speak, etc.). Personal experience here: there have been some songs/music/etc. that have blessed me tremendously, only to learn later that the musicians/speakers were not at all living according to Scripture. In the old church, they would have blamed me for saying that I was still blessed by what I heard, but they were wrong. It is not up to a singer/speaker to bless something; it is up to G-d. He preempts all human attempts at whatever they are trying to do and does His work no matter what, if people are open to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Yustme,

How do you know what you experienced and what you yearn for has any lasting value? Throngs have come foward at the BG crusade and by their own estimates less than 5% are following Christ 5 years following the event? What you claim to yearn for is just an move of emotions rather than the lasting move of the HS.

Exactly - emotions are fickle and can be deceiving. God's Word is absolute and words do matter when we're speaking His Words.

Error begets error, so we need to be careful with what we say and how we say it. But getting back to the topic at hand there is only one way to renew our minds, and that is by the Word of God.

It is the truth, the knowledge of the Word of God, which is to say the knowledge of the mercies of God, and we’re back where we began. To know the truth, to believe the truth, to hold convictions about the truth, and to love the truth will naturally result in true spiritual worship.

It is conviction followed by affection, affection that is a response to truth, not to any external stimuli, including music.

Music as such has nothing to do with worship. Music can’t produce worship, although it certainly can produce emotion.

Music is not the origin of worship, but it can be the expression of it. Do not look to music to induce your worship; look to music as simply an expression of that which is induced by a heart that is rapt by the mercies of God, obedient to His commands.

True worship is God-centered worship. People tend to get caught up in where they should worship, what music they should sing in worship, and how the worship looks to other people.

Focusing on these things completely misses the point. Jesus tells us that true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). This means we worship from the heart and the way God has designed. Worship can include praying, reading God's Word with an open heart, singing, participating in communion, and serving others.

It is not limited to one act, but is done properly when the heart and attitude of the person are in the right place.

It’s also important to know that worship is reserved only for God. Only He is worthy and not any of His servants (Revelation 19:10). We are not to worship saints, prophets, statues, angels, any false gods, or Mary, the mother of Jesus.

We also should not be worshiping for the expectation of something in return, such as a miraculous healing. Worship is done for God - because He deserves it - and for His pleasure alone.

Worship can be public praise to God (Psalm 22:22, 35:18) in a congregational setting, where we can proclaim through prayer and praise our adoration and thankfulness to Him and what He has done for us.

True worship is felt inwardly, and then comes out through our actions. "Going through the motions" out of obligation is displeasing to God and is done completely in vain. He can see through all the hypocrisy, and He hates it.

He demonstrates this in Amos 5:21-24 as He talks about coming judgment. Another example is the story of Cain and Abel, the first sons of Adam and Eve. They both brought gift offerings to the Lord, but He was only pleased with Abel's. Cain brought the gift out of obligation; Abel brought his finest lambs from his flock. He brought out of faith and admiration for God.

True worship is not confined to what we do in church or open praise (although these things are both good and we are told in the Bible to do them). It is the acknowledgment of God and all His power and glory in everything we do.

The highest form of praise and worship is obedience to Him and His Word. To do this, we must know God; we cannot be ignorant of Him (Acts 17:23). Worship is to glorify and exalt God - to show our loyalty and admiration to our Father.

quote:

ORIGINAL: yustme
I read and reread your post.You're right.However If I want to be pleasing to the Lord,all my singing must be as unto the Lord with the power of the HS on me.And this Is what I look for In other singers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: yustme

Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?

I wasn't around then but wasn't it in Latin? :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: yustme

Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?

I wasn't around then but wasn't it in Latin? :)

My former mother-in-law told me that it took quite a while for her to get used to Mass being in English.

quote:

are not being taught

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lapidoth

quote:

are not being taught

That's a big part of the difference.
Paul asked the Galatians, who brought you another gospel that
is not another, but a twisted gospel? Who bewitched you?

There's still lots and lots of teaching,
but it's not the same teaching, yet it seems like it is.

quote:


"People are not being taught".I'm afraid that's exactly why very few can understand what I'm talking about

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:


"People are not being taught".I'm afraid that's exactly why very few can understand what I'm talking about

You cannot claim there are no churches that proclaim God's Word! Yes, there are many that water It down, or, ignore It completely. But there are many that proclaim It on a regular basis. Your attitude seems to be that of Elijah went he thought he was the only one had not bowed the knee to Baal.

quote:

I'm sure you understand the Trinity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: yustme

Tafkam,this Is the nicest post you have ever posted to me.Thank you so much.I don't Insist on staying where I'm at,I just don't have a choice.

Yustme-I'm sorry if this hits on sensitive territory, but I'm curious why you don't have a choice. Would it be ok to explain? I completely understand the emotional drain of being in a dead-feeling church. After we moved, that's kind of where we ended up. Man, was it hard. Fortunately, our story has a happier ending.

I'm curious about your story, if you can share it.

BT

quote:

Yes I can share It.The church we are going to,we dearly love our Pastor,however,there are a few things we disagree with.My husband has a beautiful God given talent.He plays the piano with the power of the HS on him.He's not a fancy piano player,but when he plays the piano,It's like the HS Is guiding his finger's.Our Pastor has asked him If he would play for the choir because they all requested to have him play for the choir.He prayed about It,talked to me about,then said yes.I asked why he agreed when were both discontented with some things.His answer was that he felt this was what God wanted him to do.I love my husband with everything I have In me.I believe In him and I trust him so I'm willing to be In silent misery so he can be used of God.I hope this answers your question.

quote:

He plays the piano with the power of the HS on him.He's not a fancy piano player,but when he plays the piano,It's like the HS Is guiding his finger's.