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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:42:32 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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I think that many voted against the bill because they heard from their constituents that they're sick of the USA turning into a socialist welfare state.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:42:59 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1752
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
But they've been lending like drunken sailors for years. IMO, locking things down for a few days isn't a bad thing. Maybe that's naive.
We're not really talking about a few days here. We're talking about potentially a good number of months.
BT
Would that be all bad? I can see it posing problems for businesses (especially small businesses in a pinch) but anyone out trying to get a consumer loan or line of credit right now for just about anything should be smacked.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I think that many voted against the bill because they heard from their constituents that they're sick of the USA turning into a socialist welfare state.
I think so too which is why I want to see the names.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:43:30 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
The mathematics on those equations though still hold. It was certainly a different day & time, and there were a host of other mistakes that were made which certainly made it worse, but there is no reason to think that this would work any differently today than back then.
The reason the tarriffs of the Smoot-Hawley time period (1930 BTW) were so catastrophic was because America was exporting much more than it was importing at the time-there was not the concept of a "trade deficit" such as we have today.
America was exporting to the world-making many jobs for Americans in developing products that the world would use. Manufacturing techniques were not as advanced as they are today-more workers were required to output to capacity (or overcapacity in that case) than are needed using today's production techniques. In short, some jobs today are lost (and not always replaced) due to modernization.
If those few jobs that are remaining are shipped worldwide, there becomes what we have today-a bubble in our services sector that is just waiting for a hard economic hit to topple over and hit the dust. America needs to be manufacturing at capacity and consuming what we produce BEFORE we import-that is NOT happening today (back to that trade deficit).
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:46:53 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3971
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I think that many voted against the bill because they heard from their constituents that they're sick of the USA turning into a socialist welfare state.
And we have seen that people will believe anything as long as it's simple.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:47:32 PM
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ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
In my opinion, Speaker Pelosi's speech was a transparent ploy to derail the bailout in order to prolong the crisis. The longer bad economic news commands the headlines, the better it is for Senator Obama. I am really hoping they overplay their hand and the public purchases a clue. I mean, there's playing politics, and then there's knifing your country in the belly to give your candidate an edge.
In my opinion, of course.
However, I'll repeat an earlier question I had - is there a good alternative to this bailout scheme? I don't want my retirement savings to vaporize. I mean, I'm with a solid company that is not involved in the mess, but if the market crashes completely, everybody is going to suffer.
-Robb
Thanks for that last sentence on your post - you get the idea.
There really aren't too many other options. You can send assistance to defaulting homeowners, but it doesn't really address the problem of bank liquidity and undercapitalization. It helps, but it doesn't put the banks back in a position to resume doing business. That's the more urgent problem right now. Plus, the issue is spreading into other sectors right now, so the only way to address a broadening problem is to strike at the source.
Like everyone, I've been struggling to understand what's best to do. It makes me almost sick to think of throwing that much money at government employees to go buy bad assets from careless wealthy investors, without any transparency or accountability.
But, what is the other altrernative? Is it worse?
Many of us born before cable TV have seen those old Charlie Chaplin movies about life in the Depression- how big a risk are we willing to bear for going back to living like that for half a generation?
For what its worth: I was on the phone with our banks this am, and none of them seem worried about not being able to loan $ to their good customers. They are slowing new lending, but existing lending is (they say) in good shape to make advances on existing debt facilities.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:48:02 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3971
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
But they've been lending like drunken sailors for years. IMO, locking things down for a few days isn't a bad thing. Maybe that's naive.
We're not really talking about a few days here. We're talking about potentially a good number of months.
BT
Years.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:50:00 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
Does anyone know who the Nay votes were? I can't find it anywhere.
I would like to know that as well. That's who I will campaign for and that's who I will vote for if I live in their district.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 4:57:21 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10965
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
But they've been lending like drunken sailors for years. IMO, locking things down for a few days isn't a bad thing. Maybe that's naive.
We're not really talking about a few days here. We're talking about potentially a good number of months.
BT
Years.
Decades! Generations!
What will we do? What will we do! 
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:00:28 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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I do think something needs to be done, but how come Wall Street can't pay for it? Wouldn't it be great if they tracked down the CEOs or whomever ran them in the ground and blackmailed them out of their money? MUHAHAHAHA. Sorry, I can't help but fantasize about that.
Other than all of that, if it happens, it happens, and yes, it will hurt, and we'll have to deal with it. Didn't the greatest generation come out of that debacle of 1929? Coal doesn't become diamonds without some pressure.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:06:40 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Okay, so the market is now closed (in the U.S. anyway). How much did it go down?
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:07:25 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7783
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I do think something needs to be done, but how come Wall Street can't pay for it? Wouldn't it be great if they tracked down the CEOs or whomever ran them in the ground and blackmailed them out of their money? MUHAHAHAHA. Sorry, I can't help but fantasize about that.
Other than all of that, if it happens, it happens, and yes, it will hurt, and we'll have to deal with it. Didn't the greatest generation come out of that debacle of 1929? Coal doesn't become diamonds without some pressure.
Well as some of those CEOs are currently advising Presidential campaigns, tracking them down shouldn't be hard.
My parents grew up in the Depression, and as much as I appreciated their character, the reality is that that millions of people were in dire poverty and the roots of fascism in Germany and Italy are traceable to the financial difficulties of that time. That coal might just burn.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:08:03 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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The DOW down almost 800 points. Can we stand this if it happens tomorrow as well?
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:08:29 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7783
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Okay, so the market is now closed (in the U.S. anyway). How much did it go down?
Nearly 800 points.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:10:45 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2334
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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Here's the vote breakdown.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:16:22 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1752
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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Thanks, my guy voted yes (and he's a Republican) . . . WIMP
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:17:18 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Tracy, first problem we are having all the way around is the blame game - doing something about the current crisis is much more important than trying to figure out who is to blame - something neither party seems to be able to get this through their thick skulls.
And the failure to regulate Fannie and Freddie is hardly something that can be blamed on the Republicans alone.
quote:
I think part of the problem with finding a bi-partisan solution is right here.
Hmmmm......
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:17:26 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2910
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
Here's the vote breakdown.
Thanks very much!
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:18:40 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I do think something needs to be done, but how come Wall Street can't pay for it? Wouldn't it be great if they tracked down the CEOs or whomever ran them in the ground and blackmailed them out of their money? MUHAHAHAHA. Sorry, I can't help but fantasize about that.
Other than all of that, if it happens, it happens, and yes, it will hurt, and we'll have to deal with it. Didn't the greatest generation come out of that debacle of 1929? Coal doesn't become diamonds without some pressure.
Well as some of those CEOs are currently advising Presidential campaigns, tracking them down shouldn't be hard.
My parents grew up in the Depression, and as much as I appreciated their character, the reality is that that millions of people were in dire poverty and the roots of fascism in Germany and Italy are traceable to the financial difficulties of that time. That coal might just burn.
My parents and my in-laws both grew up during the Depression, so I hear you. Anytime there is hard times something bad can happen. No question. But we Christians are too fearful. I'm not saying be imprudent by throwing caution to the wind, but I also think that the fear being spread around amongst Christians is appalling. We need to realize who we are. Surely, going to the Lord for our answers and our anger is the answer. Where is that counsel? Where is the counsel that maybe just maybe the "conventional wisdom" being peddled is not THE wisdom.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:19:48 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2910
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
Thanks, my guy voted yes (and he's a Republican) . . . WIMP
Mine voted no (Dem). Was actually going to vote for him. Now I have to switch and vote Republican. Good thing I actually like the Republican.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:22:25 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2910
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
I'm agreeing with you far too often in recent days.
Wierd.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:22:30 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1752
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
Jack, I really don't know what I'd like to see done. I'm trying to understand this all piece by piece. Very unnerving today to see MY bank go under! That hit home! But I'm not ready to panic into a rush proposal and see Congress strong-armed into passing it.
I want to see some alternatives. I want alternatives discussed and then, if there really is no viable alternative, let's take a vote on this. But even this proposal, I have heard, is very much lacking. I'm just not quite willing to go into the panic mode we're being thrown into by the media and the President. Good decisions are just not made that way.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:24:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2910
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
There is definitely the sense that Main Street is somehow disconnected from what happens on Wall Street and it's just the financially unprepared who suffer.
In reality, the fates of Main Street and Wall Street are intricately intertwined, and it rains on both the guilty and the innocent.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:28:21 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1275
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
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One other conclusion I've come to is that anyone who suggests they know exactly what the fallout will be from this package failing, or what the consequences would be from passing it is delusional. No one knows on either score, and that's a fact.
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Molon Labe
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