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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:30:39 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
My parents and my in-laws both grew up during the Depression, so I hear you. Anytime there is hard times something bad can happen. No question. But we Christians are too fearful. I'm not saying be imprudent by throwing caution to the wind, but I also think that the fear being spread around amongst Christians is appalling. We need to realize who we are. Surely, going to the Lord for our answers and our anger is the answer. Where is that counsel? Where is the counsel that maybe just maybe the "conventional wisdom" being peddled is not THE wisdom.
Well, I don't think acting out of fear or panic is neccesary, but I am concerned that our government is immobilized; and while there are times when that is a good thing, I don't think now is one of them. And I think there is a strange combination here of left-wing class warfare (punishing Wall Street) and reflexive fiscal conservative reactions to spending and regulation.
The counsel of the Lord also says without a vision the people perish; and right now we have visionless, anchorless leadership - and that is going to hurt everyone.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:31:28 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
But even this proposal, I have heard, is very much lacking.
...
I'm just not quite willing to go into the panic mode we're being thrown into by the media and the President. Good decisions are just not made that way.
Have you read the proposal? It's really not bad. It's got oversight galore, controls on executive compensation, flexibility in the tools used to address the crisis, requirements to review the regulatory system, review of accounting practices and executive comp, etc.
I'm a bit worried that if you can't pass this one, you just can't pass any proposal. That's why the market sold off so much today.
That said, one of my initial concerns was all the panic surrounding the issue. That's not leadership. That's demagoguery. I like McCain, but he didn't do anything to lower the emotional energy & fear.
The administration could have just as easily walked in and said, "We are going to have a bailout plan. It will be substantial, it will be bold, and it will be effective. It will be rolled out over the next X number of weeks. It will carry provisions for oversight, for banking reform, ..... In the meantime, the FDIC stands ready to protect your deposits and safeguard the financial system...."
This would have lowered the degree of fear and bought time for a well reasoned, fully vetted plan.
Personally, I didn't like the rush either, but after having read through the proposal I actually thought it was pretty good!
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:31:56 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
There is definitely the sense that Main Street is somehow disconnected from what happens on Wall Street and it's just the financially unprepared who suffer.
In reality, the fates of Main Street and Wall Street are intricately intertwined, and it rains on both the guilty and the innocent.
Exhibit A: My meager 401K that I've fed and nurtured for over 27 years is now a pathetic shell with no safe haven to park any of it. I wish I had a Government pension to buffer the crash...
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:32:50 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
They will definitely be sending their requests to the string ansemble..... until the water reaches their level.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:35:29 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My parents and my in-laws both grew up during the Depression, so I hear you. Anytime there is hard times something bad can happen. No question. But we Christians are too fearful. I'm not saying be imprudent by throwing caution to the wind, but I also think that the fear being spread around amongst Christians is appalling. We need to realize who we are. Surely, going to the Lord for our answers and our anger is the answer. Where is that counsel? Where is the counsel that maybe just maybe the "conventional wisdom" being peddled is not THE wisdom.
Well, I don't think acting out of fear or panic is neccesary, but I am concerned that our government is immobilized; and while there are times when that is a good thing, I don't think now is one of them. And I think there is a strange combination here of left-wing class warfare (punishing Wall Street) and reflexive fiscal conservative reactions to spending and regulation.
The counsel of the Lord also says without a vision the people perish; and right now we have visionless, anchorless leadership - and that is going to hurt everyone.
The wierd thing is you're seeing the left-wing populist "punish Wall Street" coming from the "conservative" as well as some of the more liberal folk. That seems indicative to me of a fear-based ethic.
When you have people on both conservative and liberal sides that are taking positions that are otherwise antithetical to their stated policies, you know it's just fear taking over and people taking what they think are self-protecting positions.
Not realizing of course, that what is self protecting at the individual level can be catastrophic at the social / collective level.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:36:21 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I do think something needs to be done, but how come Wall Street can't pay for it? Wouldn't it be great if they tracked down the CEOs or whomever ran them in the ground and blackmailed them out of their money? MUHAHAHAHA. Sorry, I can't help but fantasize about that.
Other than all of that, if it happens, it happens, and yes, it will hurt, and we'll have to deal with it. Didn't the greatest generation come out of that debacle of 1929? Coal doesn't become diamonds without some pressure.
Coal Miners are much more likely to get black lung than find Tiffany's next shipment. Having been to "coal country" (southern West Va), I can attest to the fact it ain't "almost heaven".
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:37:39 PM
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Jhud
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Something I have said before and still believe is that the US economy (probably all free market economies) are confidence games; in the long run they love stability, security and consistency. Right now what they needed to see more than a particular amount of money was a strong unified government that was capable of acting decisively - and what they got was the three stooges poking each other in the eyes. No wonder we had the largest single day drop in the markets ever.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:39:19 PM
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GroupW
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That's a pretty fair characterization, I think.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:41:36 PM
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eaglelady11
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I am so glad this plan didn't go through. There are other ways of saving the economy rather than using taxpayers dollars. perhaps those multimillionaire CEo's would like to use their money. Perhaps McCain, who doesn't know how many houses he owns could chip in a buck. perhaps let the institutions fall and let good ol' capitalism rebuilt itself. Perhaps let the Lord take control! there's a concept and manage our money by biblical principles. the way it's written in the bible, not the way politicans think it is.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:49:26 PM
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ekserekseez
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I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
Yes, I would like to see freefall. Compared to the misery of billions under Communism and Socialism, the pain of the Great Depression was nothing.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:53:18 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7783
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I am so glad this plan didn't go through. There are other ways of saving the economy rather than using taxpayers dollars. perhaps those multimillionaire CEo's would like to use their money. Perhaps McCain, who doesn't know how many houses he owns could chip in a buck. perhaps let the institutions fall and let good ol' capitalism rebuilt itself. Perhaps let the Lord take control! there's a concept and manage our money by biblical principles. the way it's written in the bible, not the way politicans think it is.
Even if every CEO gave whatever he had in the bank right now and every politician sold every house and car he had (to whom, I have no idea) it wouldn't put a dent in this problem. There are no dollars out there to use other than 'tax payer dollars', and I for one wouldn't mind mine going toward being a brick in what is essentailly a dam against some very difficult financial times coming.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:56:02 PM
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relady
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quote:
Compared to the misery of billions under Communism and Socialism, the pain of the Great Depression was nothing. Need to send you back to history class. Although, for the social darwinists such a possibility would cull out the weak, certainly. And the old. And the infirm. Fortunately, most Americans really don't want another Great Depression - I think we just question whether or not another Great Depression is what is going to happen. I think it's quite possible and it's definitely not the way I want to spend my senior years, thank you very much.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 5:57:13 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Yes, I would like to see freefall. Compared to the misery of billions under Communism and Socialism, the pain of the Great Depression was nothing.
Enjoy it while you can, because those same people who were calling it a 'wall street bailout' aren't interested in more capitalism; people forget that the result of the Great Depression was the New Deal and a larger government - so if you don't know that free falls like this will lead to more taxes, regulations, and social programs, then you don't know history.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:00:30 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, I would like to see freefall. Compared to the misery of billions under Communism and Socialism, the pain of the Great Depression was nothing.
Enjoy it while you can, because those same people who were calling it a 'wall street bailout' aren't interested in more capitalism; people forget that the result of the Great Depression was the New Deal and a larger government - so if you don't know that free falls like this will lead to more taxes, regulations, and social programs, then you don't know history.
You know this is a real crisis because Jack and I agree wholeheartedly.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:02:17 PM
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GroupW
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And I agree with BOTH you and Jack, so we can definitively say that the sky is falling, the world is ending, and the very depths of hell itself are in the process of freezing over.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:03:31 PM
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GregandJenny
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What needs to happen is the House of represenative needs to work and get a plan. They need to talk to experts, advisers, the people they serve, and they need to explain it in layman's terms. Right now people don't understand for the most part the implications of spending 700 billion vs not spending 700 billion. All they here is were going to spend 700 billion, and they aren't comfortable with that. They don't understand, they aren't feeling part of the process here. The Law makers need to be helping their constituents understand this.
Then we need to start teaching people how all of this works so that they understand how wall street and main street are connected.
Until people feel they have the facts and aren't trying to be "scared" into a situation this will be a long road.
G
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:05:50 PM
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GroupW
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I agree. That's what leadership means.
Hopefully people will listen.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:06:22 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
The DOW down almost 800 points. Can we stand this if it happens tomorrow as well?
Depends, are you just buying into the market or about to retire. If one is just starting their career and 401k, ira, etc. then a down turn is a good opportunity to capitalize.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:06:58 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 620
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quote:
Hopefully people will listen.
Some of the leaders have got to build trust and earn respect
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:07:07 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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If it was just the banking problem, with the bad mortgages, it would be one thing, but add in high energy prices, a tremendous trade imbalance, a weak dollar, and an unbelievably huge public debt with literally no hope to cut it anytime soon, and all the ingredients are there for some extremely tough times.
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Molon Labe
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:29:38 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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A good article HERE about the current crisis.
I think an auctioning, of sorts, of this bad debt (much of which is probably not that bad) and establishing valuations is a really good start to clearing the chaff.
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Molon Labe
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:47:46 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
And I agree with BOTH you and Jack, so we can definitively say that the sky is falling, the world is ending, and the very depths of hell itself are in the process of freezing over.
Yes, and in an even rarer turn of events I would be more than happy to be wrong in this case.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 6:51:24 PM
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ekserekseez
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I will take another Great Depression over the eventual purges in the style of Stalin and Mao that a socialist government will eventually lead to.
It was ignorance of history and lack of a long view of the future that caused this mess. And now the same ignorance of lack of vision have led to the bailout.
This bailout will be just the beginning. Wait for a universal cancellation of debt, or some similar travesty. They will not be long coming. The last thing we need to do now is fund huge government to become even more obtrusive. It's not worth it in the long run to end up a Marxists state, which may be a decade or a generation away, but will be greatly hastened by this sort of bailout.
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RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 7:01:20 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7783
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I will take another Great Depression over the eventual purges in the style of Stalin and Mao that a socialist government will eventually lead to.
It was ignorance of history and lack of a long view of the future that caused this mess. And now the same ignorance of lack of vision have led to the bailout.
This bailout will be just the beginning. Wait for a universal cancellation of debt, or some similar travesty. They will not be long coming. The last thing we need to do now is fund huge government to become even more obtrusive. It's not worth it in the long run to end up a Marxists state, which may be a decade or a generation away, but will be greatly hastened by this sort of bailout.
Well considering no less than Nancy Pelosi sunk this ship, I highly doubt if the plan now is to head in the direction of less government. In fact I think the Democrats are going to successfully paint this as a Republican failure, and so use it to usher in a greater majority, an agreeable President, and a lot more government.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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