|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:09:39 PM
|
|
|
rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My parents and my in-laws both grew up during the Depression, so I hear you. Anytime there is hard times something bad can happen. No question. But we Christians are too fearful. I'm not saying be imprudent by throwing caution to the wind, but I also think that the fear being spread around amongst Christians is appalling. We need to realize who we are. Surely, going to the Lord for our answers and our anger is the answer. Where is that counsel? Where is the counsel that maybe just maybe the "conventional wisdom" being peddled is not THE wisdom.
Well, I don't think acting out of fear or panic is neccesary, but I am concerned that our government is immobilized; and while there are times when that is a good thing, I don't think now is one of them. And I think there is a strange combination here of left-wing class warfare (punishing Wall Street) and reflexive fiscal conservative reactions to spending and regulation.
The counsel of the Lord also says without a vision the people perish; and right now we have visionless, anchorless leadership - and that is going to hurt everyone.
But Jack the government is not immobilzed right now; they did something just not the something that everyone expected from them.
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:15:04 PM
|
|
|
ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
|
huangshan:
Don't worry, I won't call you champ. You'd need to earn that.
My point is, if it's not too subtle for you: you won't need a violent revolution to turn this country socialist. All you have to do is keep bailing out financially unsound institutions and people who repeatedly make bad financial decisions.
I'm glad a majority of Congress and public opinion is starting to realize this. The number of posters on this thread who reject the RINO/Dem/socialist bailout is heartening.
So read a book yourself. Maybe you could start with one on interviewing and resume writing.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:16:56 PM
|
|
|
rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
I would propose that instead of bailing out the banks and insurance companies that the government establish a fund to help the folks that are going to lose their homes no matter what happens on Wall St.
I would propose something similar to the Farmers Home Admin plan that allows first time homeowners to get a house with little money down and the payments are tied to your income (something like 26%-30% I believe). If you live in the house for less than 7 years the government "recaptures" 100% of the increase in value when the property is sold; if you live there longer then they recapture smaller amounts until you have lived there for 33 years at which time the mortgage is paid off and there is no recapture.
Such a plan would ensure that people would not end up out on the streets and should cost less than $700B. It would have the added effect of NOT bailing out the banks that made such boneheaded loans and the money would go directly back to the Treasury.
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:24:45 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=AF9F10EC-18FE-70B2-A82949C5A24271A8
Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and his top aides took credit for building a winning bailout coalition - hours before the vote failed and stocks tanked.
The rush to claim he had engineered a victory now looks like a strategic blunder that will prolong the McCain's campaign's difficulty in finding a winning message on the economy.
Shortly before the vote, McCain had bragged about his involvement and mocked Sen. Barack Obama for staying on the sidelines.
"I've never been afraid of stepping in to solve problems for the American people, and I'm not going to stop now," McCain told a rally in Columbus, Ohio. "Senator Obama took a very different approach to the crisis our country faced. At first he didn't want to get involved. Then he was monitoring the situation."
McCain, grinning, flashed a sarcastic thumbs-up.
ekserekseez: my point, which was apparently too subtle for you, is that Stalin and Mao are not natural outcomes of bailout packages. They aren't even on the slippery slope that supposedly comes after universal health care or similar measures. Now, violent revolutions, that'd be something to talk about. This country, and practically every country, is socialist in one way or another. This country is not a totalitarian dictatorship, and, unless there have been some mass executions and/or purges that I'm not aware of, we aren't even on the totalitarian dictatorship track, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it. You mentioned ignorance of history, which seems like a plausible explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:37:40 PM
|
|
|
bzirk
Posts: 2918
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
Jack,
Where is the 700 billion going to come from?
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:44:13 PM
|
|
|
LivingParadox
Posts: 818
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have to say that I am wondering about the people who are glad this bill went down; what exactly do you propose as an alternative? Free fall? Rearranging chairs on the Titanic?
The current action gives every appearance in my mind of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
Jack,
Where is the 700 billion going to come from?
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:50:16 PM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2171
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
I'm going to put my question here just cause so many are following this.
Is the government going to end up with properties like these?
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1738458_1585590,00.html
There are now brokers buying up properties just like this for 100k or so for 20. You can buy a house over by my old Jr. High School for 20k to 25k in an area that just 3 years ago would cost 70-90k. Foreclosed on abondoned houses are now being totally destroyed by those pulling copper pipes, copper wire, aluminum and anything a thief can get his hands on. If the government is going to pick these up how do they make money off of it? If they pick up toxic mortgages in these neighborhoods now the property values are going to tank incredibly fast of the low value of the homes being sold by the broker types.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 9:59:36 PM
|
|
|
Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
My point is, if it's not too subtle for you: you won't need a violent revolution to turn this country socialist. All you have to do is keep bailing out financially unsound institutions and people who repeatedly make bad financial decisions.
AMEN!!! I just cannot understand why something so apparently clear is so foggy to some. This country has gotten so used to government handouts that people are going to be absolutely begging for stuff like income redistribution.
No, you don't need a voilent revolution at all...just keep giving the people all the rope they want and let them get fat, dumb and happy...and very, very lazy! We're there, people!
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 10:06:54 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
And what I can't understand, which is also abundantly clear from history, is how people can miss the fact that when the banking infrastructure fails, it carries down with it a very high number of the common folk who had nothing to do with creating the crisis.
Banking failures create very deep and painful recessions. Such recessions are not necessary and can be avoided or moderated with some fairly harmless government interventions.
Why you wouldn't want to do that is beyond me.
Here's the thing - the financial infrastructure of this country is every bit as important as its physical infrastructure. If our highways were falling apart, we would want someone to help fix it. If our hospitals were falling apart, we would want someone to help fix it.
There are times, hopefully few and far between, that the private sector is not equipped to fix it or not equipped to fix it in a timely & effective fashion. This would be one of those times.
I read some of these posts and wonder if people think that they are somehow immune to these types of recessions, that unemployment and financial troubles only happen to other people, that unemployment doesn't create disease, death, and dysfunction.
If we are pro-life, I have to think we should try to avoid stuff like this rather than rushing headlong into it.
Maybe that's just me.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 10:07:56 PM
|
|
|
bzirk
Posts: 2918
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
|
I almost hate to say this, but then again, I think it needs to be said. If you're middle class, and you've been saving money and living way below your means, and I'm talking about people who don't make a lot of money who can do this simply by discipline, you would be able to buy some nice properties and some good stocks for a cheap price right now.
This is the rainy day, my friends, and there are always winners on a rainy day. This is when you use that money that you saved up by not buying all the junk and the entitlements everyone else thought they were due because someone marketed this idea to them and marketed it, and marketed it, and marketed it -- until they bought it, until they forked over their cash and forked it over and forked it over and now they're crying because they paid high interest for those dvd players and ipods and those new cars every few years and those vacations and sports shoes or sports equipment for Little Johnny so he wouldn't be ridiculed by other kids at school or the video games they bought him so he would have something to do because he's bored so much of the time or any number of other things they bought that don't really matter. They're about to get a priority realignment thrust on them.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 10:49:23 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
My point is, if it's not too subtle for you: you won't need a violent revolution to turn this country socialist. All you have to do is keep bailing out financially unsound institutions and people who repeatedly make bad financial decisions.
AMEN!!! I just cannot understand why something so apparently clear is so foggy to some. This country has gotten so used to government handouts that people are going to be absolutely begging for stuff like income redistribution.
No, you don't need a voilent revolution at all...just keep giving the people all the rope they want and let them get fat, dumb and happy...and very, very lazy! We're there, people!
This is marginally socialism. Mostly, it's an attempt to save the market economy. I suppose the desire for simple solutions and loyalty to an extreme ideology have hardened some people to the multifaceted reality that we're in, which is really unfortunate.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 10:58:16 PM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2171
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Banking failures create very deep and painful recessions. Such recessions are not necessary and can be avoided or moderated with some fairly harmless government interventions.
Bush vetoed a child health bill because the mere thought of "$35 billion" reeked too much of socialism. This would also have accomplished reducing the spread of disease, death and dysfunction. So we give him $700,000,000,000 and think nothing of it?
quote:
Banking failures create very deep and painful recessions. Such recessions are not necessary and can be avoided or moderated with some fairly harmless government interventions.
Yet the majority of people here want the government to stay out of it.
quote:
Here's the thing - the financial infrastructure of this country is every bit as important as its physical infrastructure. If our highways were falling apart, we would want someone to help fix it. If our hospitals were falling apart, we would want someone to help fix it.
Hospitals are closely regulated. Highway money is closely regulated. Most of the people on CW don't want regulation.
quote:
I read some of these posts and wonder if people think that they are somehow immune to these types of recessions, that unemployment and financial troubles only happen to other people, that unemployment doesn't create disease, death, and dysfunction.
Did the Chrysler bailout fix Detroit or does Detroit still have the exact same problems now that it did 30 years ago when Uncle Sam bailed them? Is this $700,000,000,000 plan guaranteed? Do we get our money back if it fails?
quote:
Maybe that's just me.
Speaking for myself after 7.5 years of this administration I see no reason at this point to believe anything they have to say. Remember the Iraq war that wasn't going to cost "$60,000,000,000?" We were at 10 times that number last year. And counting. So I should believe them on this- the very same people who have been saying for years how peachy dandy the economy was and their supporters sure trumpeted that on CW loud and strong.
So who is going to own all of those abondoned houses that need more $$$ done to make them livable than they are worth? Is the government going to give vouchers to the people who still own homes in those areas with all of the abandoned ones to offset the drop in their property worth? Is the government going to reimburse local governments for the lost property tax revenue? Are they going to change how loans work and regulate the predatory lending tactics? Is the government going to supplement people's incomes to make up for the fact that for many people (the majority who have been foreclosed on in my state) have incomes that don't keep up with the rate of inflation? Is the government still going to be in dreamland on inflation and not realize that the tripling of gas prices, the doubling of home utilities, the 50% or so increase in grocery bills over the last 3 years is too much for too many?
Is this spending bill going to fix all of these things plus more that I didn't mention or is it just going to get tossed into the problem, wave our magic wands and make it all better? All these years of ineffective government programs, government spending and now that we have this I'm really supposed to believe that the government can fix it? I got some swampland in Florida they can have cheap if this passes, prime quality real estate to.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 11:06:40 PM
|
|
|
buckifn
Posts: 1781
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
|
I'm glad. I think we should be helping those who truly are in need...not those who are in debt because of greed and gluttony.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 11:14:09 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
1) I disagreed with Bush over the $35 billion too.
2) There's a great deal of calls right here on CW for increased regulation of the mortgage industry. People here are generally in favor of financial oversight. We've tried a highly deregulated financial system. It didn't work very well.
3) The Chrysler bailout actually worked fairly well. The government got their money back with interest, and Chrysler went on to have one of the most highly successful design shops in the industry and was the closest US competitor to Honda in terms of the model development time, due to a multibillion dollar design facility that completely reengineered the process of designing cars. (I was against it in that case, but it worked out well.) They succeeded fairly well until Mercedes pursued an ill-advised acquisition that was later unwound.
4) Yes, the $700 billion as proposed was intended to actually support the system and make a profit at the same time, or at least offer reasonable safeguards against loss & waste. It likely would have been successful.
5) I totally agree this administration has a big credibility problem. Huge. Ginormous, in fact.
6) The problem with the banking industry conceptually at least is fairly straightforward and simple. The government is actually fairly adept at tackling very large but simple problems. If you describe it using single syllable words, the average congressman can usually pick up on the gist of it after two or three passes.
7) That said, it's unclear whether this would have fixed the problem. Fix is a strong word, though. It most likely would have moderated the problem long enough for the private sector to get to work on a permanent fix.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/29/2008 11:27:22 PM
|
|
|
LabGuy
Posts: 3350
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
This country is not a totalitarian dictatorship, and, unless there have been some mass executions and/or purges that I'm not aware of, we aren't even on the totalitarian dictatorship track, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it. You mentioned ignorance of history, which seems like a plausible explanation.
Although its immediate context is about sin, this verse is apropos to the discussion:
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." - I Corinthians 10:12
At the risk of invoking Godwin, Hitler rose to power not through revolution, but through the political process. During a time of economic hardship, no less. Purges and consolidation of power followed.
Although I do agree with you that the bailout is not necessarily a step down that path. There are other things far more ominous to my mind out there. Like this.
As Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
-Robb
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 12:31:48 AM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
At the risk of invoking Godwin, Hitler rose to power not through revolution, but through the political process. During a time of economic hardship, no less. Purges and consolidation of power followed.
Sure, but we weren't talking about Hitler, and Hitler wasn't like Mao or Stalin except in the outcome.
I'm going to make a really poor analogy, but lumping those three together is a little like comparing AIDS, cancer, and the Spanish influenza. They're all terrible and have had similar outcomes, but one isn't like the others, and the others probably shouldn't be lumped together too casually either. Unless you're a cheerleader, nuance is something to be encouraged, not feared.
The United States isn't analogous to post-World-War Germany, we don't have the history of religious persecution against Jews... It's just a poor analogy. There's no groups that are being scapegoated to the degree that the Jews were.
That said, Neil Cavuto recently blamed the recent problems on "minorities". So maybe I'm wrong and maybe Jewish people should fear his ilk coming after them.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 12:34:22 AM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
I read some of these posts and wonder if people think that they are somehow immune to these types of recessions, that unemployment and financial troubles only happen to other people, that unemployment doesn't create disease, death, and dysfunction.
No, I don't think I'm immune from it. I pay the same high prices that I have been paying. I wonder to will my bank fall. But it is toooo hard to swallow 700 Billion.
See where I live, it's not uncommon to find someone that has no house, no stock, no job, no bank account. So how would this effect them?
Too many flipflops, which one is believeable?
The economy is fundamentally strong....
The liberals are just trying to scare everyone...
Gov't should be smaller..
Let the markets be free...
Welfare state....
It's just too confusing to people.
I understand something has to be done. But what really? how can you stop the Lord's Will?
Babylon is falling, there's nothing you or I can do really. The Congress cannot outvote God.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 12:56:37 AM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I understand something has to be done. But what really? how can you stop the Lord's Will?
Babylon is falling, there's nothing you or I can do really. The Congress cannot outvote God.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
You'd think maps were in hard supply.
Babylon was in Mesopotamia, which is modern-day Iraq. Yeah, it's fallen on hard times. Could we talk about the financial crisis now? If you're confused, it's presumptuous to declare that there's nothing we can do.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 1:10:32 AM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
You'd think maps were in hard supply.
Babylon was in Mesopotamia, which is modern-day Iraq. Yeah, it's fallen on hard times. Could we talk about the financial crisis now? If you're confused, it's presumptuous to declare that there's nothing we can do.
Babylon is not a single place.
But you know what America is there in Iraq too.
I'm not confused at all.
I said there is nothing we can do against God's Will, you think we can?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 1:18:53 AM
|
|
|
wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Well, I don't think acting out of fear or panic is neccesary, but I am concerned that our government is immobilized; and while there are times when that is a good thing, I don't think now is one of them. And I think there is a strange combination here of left-wing class warfare (punishing Wall Street) and reflexive fiscal conservative reactions to spending and regulation.
I agree.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 1:31:31 AM
|
|
|
wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
IMO, the 750 million figure will now only grow by the current inaction in Congress....as more banks fail...the government will continue to step in on a case by case basis to prevent economic disaster....which means the tax payers are going to be on the hook anyhow....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: House defeats the bailout bill!!! - 9/30/2008 1:32:31 AM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I'm not confused at all.
I said there is nothing we can do against God's Will, you think we can?
quote:
Too many flipflops, which one is believeable?
The economy is fundamentally strong....
The liberals are just trying to scare everyone...
Gov't should be smaller..
Let the markets be free...
Welfare state....
It's just too confusing to people.
That sounds like you're confused. And then you advocated inaction. That sounded presumptuous.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
