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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 10:56:57 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1778
Joined: 5/23/2006
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if this girl was attending there before then she had ample opportunity to give her life to Christ if that is what she desired, so I think it doesn't make sense at all to suddenly say "ladies failing to give her a baby shower" is causing her to be lost."
Every person who is saved only comes to Jesus if the Spirit draws them. How do we know the Spirit didn't draw her before she became pregnant?
If someone is going to use a baby shower to deny or accept Jesus then how much do they really want Him?
Any of us who decides to follow Jesus will have rejection, persecution, and a cross to bear. The more I read about connecting a baby shower to her Salvation the more ridiculous it sounds.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 11:15:18 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
if this girl was attending there before then she had ample opportunity to give her life to Christ if that is what she desired, so I think it doesn't make sense at all to suddenly say "ladies failing to give her a baby shower" is causing her to be lost."
Every person who is saved only comes to Jesus if the Spirit draws them. How do we know the Spirit didn't draw her before she became pregnant?
If someone is going to use a baby shower to deny or accept Jesus then how much do they really want Him?
Any of us who decides to follow Jesus will have rejection, persecution, and a cross to bear. The more I read about connecting a baby shower to her Salvation the more ridiculous it sounds.
This thread has been taken to a ridiculous point...
It has nothing to do with the shower really, it has to do with the attitude of the women in that church towards the unwed mother...period! The point is that they had the opportunity to reach out to her and more importantly, to her innocent child (whether by means of a shower or any other way), but because of their hardened hearts towards her sin, they refused to do it. They definitely missed the mark here:
1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." -I Corinthians 13
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 11:43:20 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Ditto. The church should not be used to 'approve' her pregnancy. A home would be ideal for this ... in no way should anyone ever think it is OK to become pregnant outside of marriage..........God sure doesn't and who is the innocent? The baby.
Two things, solar.
1. Throwing a baby shower does not mean one "approves." It means one will continue to support you, even though you made a mistake (ie, promiscuity) . But guess what else? That child ISN'T a mistake. The baby comes from the LORD, is formed in her womb, and is fearfully and wonderfully made. The circumstances are poor, but we should always celebrate life.
2. I think there is too much emphasis being put on the actually physical parameters of the church building. A building is just a building. The people are who make up the church, no matter which building they are in.
One thing: I don't agree with you and I don't need you to correct me. You are offering what you THINK only.
One thing more: Promiscuity is a sin...not a mistake. Fornication is a sin...not a mistake. That, is where you all are making your mistake. You have no idea about whether or not I would care for or love a person who is pregnant out of wedlock. Probably more than you.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 11:46:21 AM
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myka
Posts: 810
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quote:
A baby shower given at the church must be done with the permission of the church. Everything that happens at the church has the permission of the church or it wouldn't happen. What message does it send when we preach about sin and the need for repentance, yet turn our heads when we find it under our noses?
I also do not see how your question here has any bearing on what we are talking about. I feel you are trying to make my position an extreme one, which it is not. You can not make an exaggeration of my stance, then point out the flaws of the exaggeration and expect it to hold for my position as well.
I'm not trying to make your position an extreme one; just a consistent one. You said that people need to repent for their sins, so I was just wondering if that applies to church services and youth groups or does it just apply to wanting to have a baby shower at the church? In my mind, the worship services should be held to a higher standard spiritually than the baby shower. In my church, we do have times for repentance during our worship services.
I don't think you are extreme or anything... I think you care about your church, and want them to grow in Christlikeness.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 12:09:39 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
A baby shower given at the church must be done with the permission of the church. Everything that happens at the church has the permission of the church or it wouldn't happen. What message does it send when we preach about sin and the need for repentance, yet turn our heads when we find it under our noses?
I also do not see how your question here has any bearing on what we are talking about. I feel you are trying to make my position an extreme one, which it is not. You can not make an exaggeration of my stance, then point out the flaws of the exaggeration and expect it to hold for my position as well.
I'm not trying to make your position an extreme one; just a consistent one. You said that people need to repent for their sins, so I was just wondering if that applies to church services and youth groups or does it just apply to wanting to have a baby shower at the church? In my mind, the worship services should be held to a higher standard spiritually than the baby shower. In my church, we do have times for repentance during our worship services.
I don't think you are extreme or anything... I think you care about your church, and want them to grow in Christlikeness.
I appreciate you cre and concern. My church is a wonderful, caring church and the pastor is a swell guy 
My position has been the same all along: The church is for the saints, those that are not saints (or are unrepentant) shouldn't be treated as if they are. I have said this young lady should be given a shower, just not at the church. I have also said the leadership really dropped the ball on this one.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 3:20:11 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2401
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Ditto. The church should not be used to 'approve' her pregnancy. A home would be ideal for this ... in no way should anyone ever think it is OK to become pregnant outside of marriage..........God sure doesn't and who is the innocent? The baby.
Two things, solar.
1. Throwing a baby shower does not mean one "approves." It means one will continue to support you, even though you made a mistake (ie, promiscuity) . But guess what else? That child ISN'T a mistake. The baby comes from the LORD, is formed in her womb, and is fearfully and wonderfully made. The circumstances are poor, but we should always celebrate life.
2. I think there is too much emphasis being put on the actually physical parameters of the church building. A building is just a building. The people are who make up the church, no matter which building they are in.
One thing: I don't agree with you and I don't need you to correct me. You are offering what you THINK only.
One thing more: Promiscuity is a sin...not a mistake. Fornication is a sin...not a mistake. That, is where you all are making your mistake. You have no idea about whether or not I would care for or love a person who is pregnant out of wedlock. Probably more than you.
Easy, tiger.
Yes. It is a sin.
My point was . . . the child isn't the sin. The sin has already been done. Let's move on.
And I never said anything about whether you love or don't love anyone. I don't know what brought you to that rationale.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 6:17:56 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 227
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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You can love the sinner by having the baby shower at the church and still condemn the sin.
She knows that what she did was wrong without anyone having to "preach" or "lecture" her. She needs to see the love and compassion of Christians who will assist her and lead her to changing her life to follow Christ from this day forward.
What she did is sin, but it is not the unforgiveable sin. She is more likely to come to repentance by your loving and accepting her than by your condemning her. This is evidenced by your comment that she went and found another church who would have a shower.
May God forgive us when we are unloving and give us wisdom to do what Jesus would do!
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 6:55:06 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
You can love the sinner by having the baby shower at the church and still condemn the sin.
She knows that what she did was wrong without anyone having to "preach" or "lecture" her. She needs to see the love and compassion of Christians who will assist her and lead her to changing her life to follow Christ from this day forward.
What she did is sin, but it is not the unforgiveable sin. She is more likely to come to repentance by your loving and accepting her than by your condemning her. This is evidenced by your comment that she went and found another church who would have a shower.
May God forgive us when we are unloving and give us wisdom to do what Jesus would do!
Accepting someone that is lost is the surest way to keep them lost. Christ does not accept sin, neither should we. Simply because we do not accept sin, and refuse to treat those in it the same as saints, does not mean we do not love them. God loves the world enought to want to see it saved, which is why He sent His Son. He only accepts those that come to Him through the Son. All others will be rejected.
The whole idea of "acceptance" is one that has gone a long way in killing churches.
Could a shower have helped lead her to Christ? Maybe, which is why one in someone's home would have been a good idea. The best way to help lead her to Christ is not taking part in her charade that her sin id OK or acceptable in any way. A shower on church grounds would have done so.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 8:45:02 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2401
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Accepting someone that is lost is the surest way to keep them lost. Christ does not accept sin, neither should we. Simply because we do not accept sin, and refuse to treat those in it the same as saints, does not mean we do not love them. God loves the world enought to want to see it saved, which is why He sent His Son. He only accepts those that come to Him through the Son. All others will be rejected.
I don't think we are on the same page of what accepting means. It is not about saying that their sin is OK. It is about letting them have a "come as you are" attitude. But this is NOT a "stay as you are" attitude. It invokes change and repentance, but contrary to how you come across, it doesn't require them to be a saint first . .
quote:
The whole idea of "acceptance" is one that has gone a long way in killing churches.
Accepting sin? Yes.
Accepting people? Never.
quote:
Could a shower have helped lead her to Christ? Maybe, which is why one in someone's home would have been a good idea. The best way to help lead her to Christ is not taking part in her charade that her sin id OK or acceptable in any way. A shower on church grounds would have done so.
I still don't see how the location makes any difference. Is there something magical about the church building?
The building is chosen because it can facilitate a larger group of people that a home cannot.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 9:14:20 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Accepting someone that is lost is the surest way to keep them lost. Christ does not accept sin, neither should we. Simply because we do not accept sin, and refuse to treat those in it the same as saints, does not mean we do not love them. God loves the world enought to want to see it saved, which is why He sent His Son. He only accepts those that come to Him through the Son. All others will be rejected.
I don't think we are on the same page of what accepting means. It is not about saying that their sin is OK. It is about letting them have a "come as you are" attitude. But this is NOT a "stay as you are" attitude. It invokes change and repentance, but contrary to how you come across, it doesn't require them to be a saint first . .
quote:
The whole idea of "acceptance" is one that has gone a long way in killing churches.
Accepting sin? Yes.
Accepting people? Never.
quote:
Could a shower have helped lead her to Christ? Maybe, which is why one in someone's home would have been a good idea. The best way to help lead her to Christ is not taking part in her charade that her sin id OK or acceptable in any way. A shower on church grounds would have done so.
I still don't see how the location makes any difference. Is there something magical about the church building?
The building is chosen because it can facilitate a larger group of people that a home cannot.
Perhaps I did misunderstand the intended use of the words.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 9:26:30 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4258
Joined: 4/11/2005
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My questions never got answered and I was mainly trying to gauge the intent of the girl. Anyway, having the shower at the church is pretty irrelevant. I think it would be a lot smarter if no one has any kind of shower at a church--you'll avoid all this stuff.
Anyway! It would have been very easy to have a shower for the girl at someone's house and that's what should have been done if there was concern about ministering to her and meeting her needs.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 8:41:23 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Is there something magical about the church building?
MAgical? no, but the building is represenative of the Gathering of the Saints that gather there. As such it should be used as an extention of that part of the Body of Christ.
Jesus seemed to be a little upset over the mis-use of a "Churc" building in Scripture;
(Joh 2:15) And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
(Joh 2:16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Scripture is very plain about the Church (Gathering of Saints, Body of Christ) not permitting sin nor sinners to partake.
Church is by definition a Gathering of the SAINTS.
Bro. Shane is correct; acceptance of sin and sinners will only help to keep the sinner separated from God.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 8:42:53 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2401
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RC,
If the saints gather in the home instead . . .
Isn't that still the church?
I hope I'm not grasping at straws here...
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 8:53:39 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
RC,
If the saints gather in the home instead . . .
Isn't that still the church?
I hope I'm not grasping at straws here...
If the shower is held in a Church (a building dedicated as a place of Worship and service to God; then any function held there will be percieved as a Church function. And the honoring of a lost person and the "acceptance" of their sin by that honoring would not be a good thing in my opinion.
If the individuals in the Church want to have a shower; use a home, a party barn, the park, a conference room at a hotel, a meeting room in a resturaunt, etc; but not the Church.
This position revolves around the woman being a lost person, if she were a professing believer then there would be other avenues that would be proper.
It is all about the very appearance of evil, a shower held in the Church for a lost person who evidently is living in sin will be percieved as acceptance of sin; hence the appearance of evil.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 9:48:20 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2401
Joined: 5/16/2005
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Okay, fair enough. I understand your view, while I still disagree.
As I stated, the sin was the fornication.
The baby is not the sin.
I don't see it as accepting the sin.
And perhaps the way I word "accepting the person" carries a different weight than how you may perceive it. I am very much about repentence, etc. I just believe that proper relationships lead to an opening for the Holy Spirit to convict of sin. And I think that embracing a hurt and lost child, reaching out for some support, is a foot in the door for her to see her sin and to become repentant.
That, and I think the turning away of someone hurting takes on as much of an appearance of evil to the world and throwing her a celebration of the life that is in her (not a celebration of the sin).
All in all, to RC, Bro Shane, etc,
I know we come from different walks and have different approaches, but I am glad to be on the same team as you guys.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 11:55:51 AM
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myka
Posts: 810
Status: offline
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quote:
I agree that the baby is not the sin; but showers are to honor the mom not the baby.
See, that's the assumption that is incorrect. The shower is to honor the baby, the innocent life; it isn't at all about the mom, except that the baby is currently residing in her body. It is all about preparing for the baby.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 12:33:02 PM
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Tashilein
Posts: 166
Joined: 9/30/2008
Status: online
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Maybe I'm still to new and I feel I have a long way to go to know the Bible like all of you. Living in a muslim country, I don't know of any churches nearby where I could go to worship, go to Bible study and get guidance... So sorry in advance for asking or saying stupid things 
But, the girl's parents aren't saved, neither is she and she wasn't a member of the church, yet she's a longtime attender and went to youth group. Why did she attend church? Why go to youth group? Has she ever been asked why she attends church and youth group?
In one of the posts it was said she had been talked to about repentance, but it didn't say she wasn't willing to repent. Or maybe I misunderstood. Also in the original post, it says the father is bad news. We don't know him nor the relationship they had. They say love makes blind. So she wasn't strong enough to fight against temptation and sinned. Now there's a baby on the way. Maybe a Church isn't the best place for a shower (which I thought was about celebrating a new life, but then again where I come from we don't have baby showers, but give gifts once the baby is born), but to turn her away? For those ladies to be disappointed? Yes, she sinned, but from what I understand God forgives us. Shouldn't we forgive those who have sinned? Regardless of how often they sin as God forgives us every time? Help them not to sin again as we would want them to help us not to sin? The goverment law says "strike 3, you're out", but does God? Maybe she does want to repent since she eventually sought out a new Church? Sometimes a person needs some time to let a conversation sink in. For those women to turn away an opportunity to maybe save or at least guide her... They have sinned too, so why respond that way? Isn't the one without sin the one who should throw the first stone?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 2:19:16 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
I agree that the baby is not the sin; but showers are to honor the mom not the baby.
See, that's the assumption that is incorrect. The shower is to honor the baby, the innocent life; it isn't at all about the mom, except that the baby is currently residing in her body. It is all about preparing for the baby.
Well I humbly disagree, I have attended more baby showers that I care to remember and all the fluff, and concern, and uplifting is for the mom.
So I maintain the the Mon is the one honored.
The Church can honor the child by someone bringing the child to Church aftre the child is born, and teaching the child the truth about Jesus.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 2:23:19 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2401
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
The Church can honor the child by someone bringing to to Church and teaching the child the truth about Jesus.
Thanks
RC
Hopefully that will be done, and hopefully the "disappointment" of these ladies will not turn the poor girl away from rearing her child up in the church.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 2:32:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Hopefully that will be done, and hopefully the "disappointment" of these ladies will not turn the poor girl away from rearing her child up in the church.
I could not have said it better myself, and I hope the Church keeps reaching out to the mon so the she will accept Jesus.
I must say that Jesus was very plain about why some do not accept Christ, and this future mon seems to fit right in.
(Joh 3:20) People who do evil hate the light and won't come to the light, because it clearly shows what they have done.
(Joh 3:21) But everyone who lives by the truth will come to the light, because they want others to know that God is really the one doing what they do.
So I pray, and will ask my Church to pray that the Mom will come to the point of desiring the Light (Jesus) more than she desires sin (Darkness).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 4:29:09 PM
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myka
Posts: 810
Status: offline
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Usually, at baby showers, it is all about the baby. Baby gets gifts, talk about baby stuff, sometimes, prayer for the labor and delivery, and usually, the mom doesn't get anything.
Also, if the mom wants a shower to honor herself, it is different than the normal baby shower activities, and different people are invited.
I've been to both kinds... and they are different.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/3/2008 4:35:15 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2842
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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I'm going to have to side with "baby showers honor the mother not the baby." The baby doesn't eat cake, play games, win prizes or remember it. The baby is not the center of attention...mom is. Baby showers provide the parents with the things that babies need but mom and dad can't necessarily afford. The parents and the baby can be given those things without a party. The party is for mom.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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