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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 4:19:01 PM
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christsstar
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For starters: several people commented that they've never heard of holding a baby shower in a church. I've been to a whopping 2 baby showers (outside of work) in my life. One was at the church. The other was hosted by the pastor's wife at the pastor's home because we had no church building (otherwise I believe it would've been at the church).
Reasons for using a church over someone's home? Many people know how to get to the church already. Bigger kitchen area to prepare the snacks. Bigger area for the party part of the shower. Nobody fighting over who gets to host the shower (yes, I've seen many of those happen).
It makes sense to me to use a church.
For those who say a church is for members or believers only. Do you believe a non-member or non-believer can use the church BUILDING for a wedding? I know many churches have stipulations about pre-marital counseling and different site-fees, etc. But at churches I've attended, you didn't have to be a believer to use the facility. In fact, I wasn't a member of the church where I had my wedding and we were never asked to "prove" we were saved. We paid a lot more to use the facility, but we were not members. I also could have had my own officiant if I chose, and I could have had my pre-marital counseling done by my officiant, with a statement from him saying he did it. That being said ... nobody knew if I was saved or not. Yes, I was, but no one asked or would have asked. And my counseling was done with a different pastor than the one who performed my ceremony.
All that to say, if it's OK for a non-member or non-believer to use the church building for 1 purpose, why not another?
Yes, the women of the church missed an outreach opportunity. I wonder if this is the only one they've missed? Perhaps have they tried to reach out to her before but she wasn't interested in their help in the way they wanted to help? (I think of the homeless on the street who want money and will turn away food.)
I have seen unwed pregnant women (teenage and older) be ministered to by the church. Consequently the woman continued going to the church and the child did as well. Now the child is being raised in the church.
_____________________________
 Christine
Grampa John - 10/23/1920-11/26/2008
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 4:24:48 PM
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myka
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quote:
I know this sounds like nit-picking and I genuinely do not mean for it to...
the above statement certainly applies to our fellow brothers/sisters and I am totally on board with that, but can it really apply to non-believers if the truth is not in them? They need the whole gospel.
I'm with you on that, too.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 5:03:51 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: christsstar
For those who say a church is for members or believers only. Do you believe a non-member or non-believer can use the church BUILDING for a wedding?
I do not marry nor permit an unsaved person to marry in the Church. I turn down a lot more request to perform a ceremony than I perform. Probably why my success rate (divorce rate) in so low (over a hundred wedding over 45 years with 2 divorces). Being obedient to Scripture is most effective.
Yes reach out to the young lady (should have already been done since she was part of the youth group for a few years), help her financially, offer here a place to stay, show her with all humility the error of her ways, lead her to a point to where she will respond to the Holy Spirit, etc.
But using the Church building to condone and celebrate a lifestyle of fornication without repentance and salvation is just not a way to reach out. Period.
I do not permit the Church to be used for AA, NA, nor any othere secular group (even though they sometimes do good things). Christ says that His Fathers House is a house of Prayer and not to be used for other things. Again I post;
(Mat 21:12) And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
(Mat 21:13) And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 5:21:32 PM
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Mark328
Posts: 179
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: christsstar
For those who say a church is for members or believers only. Do you believe a non-member or non-believer can use the church BUILDING for a wedding?
I do not marry nor permit an unsaved person to marry in the Church. I turn down a lot more request to perform a ceremony than I perform. Probably why my success rate (divorce rate) in so low (over a hundred wedding over 45 years with 2 divorces). Being obedient to Scripture is most effective.
Yes reach out to the young lady (should have already been done since she was part of the youth group for a few years), help her financially, offer here a place to stay, show her with all humility the error of her ways, lead her to a point to where she will respond to the Holy Spirit, etc.
But using the Church building to condone and celebrate a lifestyle of fornication without repentance and salvation is just not a way to reach out. Period.
I do not permit the Church to be used for AA, NA, nor any othere secular group (even though they sometimes do good things). Christ says that His Fathers House is a house of Prayer and not to be used for other things. Again I post;
(Mat 21:12) And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
(Mat 21:13) And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Thanks
RC
So, RC, I have to ask you this then:
If I understand what you've written here, you don't allow your church to serve the community (i.e., AA, NA)? Are we not supposed to reach out to others (whether they believe or not), or do we only reach out to those who've been saved?
If I'm wrong here, please correct me.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 5:33:03 PM
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christsstar
Posts: 5138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: christsstar
For those who say a church is for members or believers only. Do you believe a non-member or non-believer can use the church BUILDING for a wedding?
I do not marry nor permit an unsaved person to marry in the Church. I turn down a lot more request to perform a ceremony than I perform. Probably why my success rate (divorce rate) in so low (over a hundred wedding over 45 years with 2 divorces). Being obedient to Scripture is most effective.
Yes reach out to the young lady (should have already been done since she was part of the youth group for a few years), help her financially, offer here a place to stay, show her with all humility the error of her ways, lead her to a point to where she will respond to the Holy Spirit, etc.
But using the Church building to condone and celebrate a lifestyle of fornication without repentance and salvation is just not a way to reach out. Period.
I do not permit the Church to be used for AA, NA, nor any othere secular group (even though they sometimes do good things). Christ says that His Fathers House is a house of Prayer and not to be used for other things. Again I post;
(Mat 21:12) And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
(Mat 21:13) And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Thanks
RC
Sadly, I know just as many divorced Christians as I do divorced non-Christians. So being saved does not indicate the success of a marriage.
My uncle is in his church's AA program. If it weren't for that, I'm not sure he would attend that church at all. Yes, he would go to church, but not that one.
I am of the circle that believes a church is just a building. I attended a church that was held in a community center. I've seen churches held in schools and movie theatres and houses. A location of worship does not make it any more or less holy. A building is just a building. It's the heart of the believers that make a church a church. That being said, I see no reason why a church cannot be used as a meeting place for some events.
All that to say ... I respectfully disagree with you.
But ... at least you are consistent. And for that I thank you.
_____________________________
Christine
Grampa John - 10/23/1920-11/26/2008
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 6:17:04 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark328
So, RC, I have to ask you this then:
If I understand what you've written here, you don't allow your church to serve the community (i.e., AA, NA)? Are we not supposed to reach out to others (whether they believe or not), or do we only reach out to those who've been saved?
If I'm wrong here, please correct me.
My interpretaton olf Scripture says Church is for;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Church is for the gathering of the Saints (Believers, Christians), not a community service building. Now many of my Pastor friends disagree with this, and that is fine for them I guess.
We reach out (With OUT being the key word here) and live our lives by what we have learned at the gathering of the Saints to live by the example of Christ. Folks are drawn by this example and the Holy Spirit draws them into the Kingdom. We reach out to the lost, and teach and grow the Saints unto the Stature of Christ.
quote:
Christsstar;
Sadly, I know just as many divorced Christians as I do divorced non-Christians. So being saved does not indicate the success of a marriage.
My uncle is in his church's AA program. If it weren't for that, I'm not sure he would attend that church at all. Yes, he would go to church, but not that one.
Maybe whoever married those folks should have vetted the couples and counseled them more before marrying them. Marrying folks just because they have an itch is a recipe for disaster.
I said the AA does some good, it is just not the way of the Gospel; with the 'Higher Power" even if that higher power is a door knob, or nature or whatever. Not in my Church, no thanks. I am certainly not going to judge your uncle's spirituality, but if I was you; I would work on him a bit.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 7:06:19 PM
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coolfamily6
Posts: 253
Joined: 4/18/2005
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RC, My pastor does not perform weddings unless the couples go through an intensive 12 weeks of counseling with him or one of the other pastors. We do not allow weddings of nonmembers at our church since one wedding that had the bride drinking Jack Daniels and smoking in the bride room. That was it. I wonder what my pastor's success rate is? He wouldn't have married us because we were living together and not members of the church. I do wish the pastor that did marry us had called us to the carpet on that. (We did not marry in the church, I felt it was wrong.)
We do have a counseling center, a grief support group, divorce support group, a bible study ministry, a preschool and adding grades to become an elementary school and opening this month a YMCA like gymnasium.
_____________________________
If your bible is a mess; your life won't be.
~Encouragement a mom gave to our children at our First Grader's Bible Ceremony!
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 7:10:53 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: coolfamily6
RC, My pastor does not perform weddings unless the couples go through an intensive 12 weeks of counseling with him or one of the other pastors. We do not allow weddings of nonmembers at our church since one wedding that had the bride drinking Jack Daniels and smoking in the bride room. That was it. I wonder what my pastor's success rate is? He wouldn't have married us because we were living together and not members of the church. I do wish the pastor that did marry us had called us to the carpet on that. (We did not marry in the church, I felt it was wrong.)
We do have a counseling center, a grief support group, divorce support group, a bible study ministry, a preschool and adding grades to become an elementary school and opening this month a YMCA like gymnasium.
Sounds like y'all got some good stuff going on.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 7:25:49 PM
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coolfamily6
Posts: 253
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: coolfamily6
RC, My pastor does not perform weddings unless the couples go through an intensive 12 weeks of counseling with him or one of the other pastors. We do not allow weddings of nonmembers at our church since one wedding that had the bride drinking Jack Daniels and smoking in the bride room. That was it. I wonder what my pastor's success rate is? He wouldn't have married us because we were living together and not members of the church. I do wish the pastor that did marry us had called us to the carpet on that. (We did not marry in the church, I felt it was wrong.)
We do have a counseling center, a grief support group, divorce support group, a bible study ministry, a preschool and adding grades to become an elementary school and opening this month a YMCA like gymnasium.
Sounds like y'all got some good stuff going on.
Thanks
RC
Even with all that stuff, our pastor is very protective about what activities are allowed. He would agree with you about AA based on your exact reasoning. All of the activities (except the gym) have Christ centered or bible based curriculum.
I am not sure about the baby shower thing, we have been there for 17 yrs and have never seen one other than for minister's wives when church members organized them. There have been 50th anniversary/75th birthday parties, etc for members who rented the fellowship hall.
_____________________________
If your bible is a mess; your life won't be.
~Encouragement a mom gave to our children at our First Grader's Bible Ceremony!
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 7:47:42 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1264
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No, no, no!! You can't have it the church, you have to have it in the home. Then you can be like Martha Stewart and have a theme party. (Yes, of course I'm serious.) Having it in the church is so informal and cold and you can't curl up on couch or drink tea from fine china. You can bake little cookies that look like baby booties. Have it in a house and play the baby games and have cake and ice cream. Then open the presents, hold them up and say ahhhh!! At church, you have to sit on those cold hard chairs that make your butt sore. Sitting on comfy couch is much better. :)
But I do see what you're saying. It is a wonderful way to outreach. But it seems so cold and informal. :( But that's just me.
And the guys are saying, Oh, dear God, please save me from this!!! :)
kim
quote:
ORIGINAL: christsstar
For starters: several people commented that they've never heard of holding a baby shower in a church. I've been to a whopping 2 baby showers (outside of work) in my life. One was at the church. The other was hosted by the pastor's wife at the pastor's home because we had no church building (otherwise I believe it would've been at the church).
Reasons for using a church over someone's home? Many people know how to get to the church already. Bigger kitchen area to prepare the snacks. Bigger area for the party part of the shower. Nobody fighting over who gets to host the shower (yes, I've seen many of those happen).
It makes sense to me to use a church.
For those who say a church is for members or believers only. Do you believe a non-member or non-believer can use the church BUILDING for a wedding? I know many churches have stipulations about pre-marital counseling and different site-fees, etc. But at churches I've attended, you didn't have to be a believer to use the facility. In fact, I wasn't a member of the church where I had my wedding and we were never asked to "prove" we were saved. We paid a lot more to use the facility, but we were not members. I also could have had my own officiant if I chose, and I could have had my pre-marital counseling done by my officiant, with a statement from him saying he did it. That being said ... nobody knew if I was saved or not. Yes, I was, but no one asked or would have asked. And my counseling was done with a different pastor than the one who performed my ceremony.
All that to say, if it's OK for a non-member or non-believer to use the church building for 1 purpose, why not another?
Yes, the women of the church missed an outreach opportunity. I wonder if this is the only one they've missed? Perhaps have they tried to reach out to her before but she wasn't interested in their help in the way they wanted to help? (I think of the homeless on the street who want money and will turn away food.)
I have seen unwed pregnant women (teenage and older) be ministered to by the church. Consequently the woman continued going to the church and the child did as well. Now the child is being raised in the church.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 8:05:46 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1264
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Why didn't you all have the shower at someone's house? It's more fun at someone's house, then at a cold church with cold hard chairs that hurt your butt. It's less formal and well, more fun.
And honestly, I've never been to Shower, and I've been to a lot, where the pregnant girl ASKED for the party. That's pretty tacky in my book. Her friends should put the party together for her or the women of the church should have put it on for her and had it at someone else's house, but not at the church.
Edit: After typing all of this, I got to thinking. She asked for the shower to be in the church. She asked for a shower. Basically, she's saying, hey buy me gifts. Tacky. Now if you came up to me and said, hey Kim, Leslie is pregnant and she has nothing for the baby and I was wondering can you give her a shower, I would say, Sure!! But at my house, So I can be Martha. But if she said to the church, hey give me a shower, the women may have been put off by her demands for a shower, tacky, as opposed to offering to do one. I have a feeling it's not the pregnancy that turned them off, but the tackiness of asking for one. Or it could be a combination of both. I personally wouldn't go to a party that someone else was demanding that I attend and buy them gifts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rafterman
So, I'm a youth leader.
Small church. Less than 50 people.
Youth group girl. Long time attender. Not a member. Not saved.
She just graduated and is pregnant. She is not married and is not getting married to the father. (good thing, he is bad news)
She wanted to have her baby shower at the church.
Some of the women said no way! They were so disapointed in her etc...
I explained to the women leaders in our church council meeting that this may be the last opportunity that we have to witness to her and love her and bring her closer to us and that they should take the lead have the baby shower at the church.
They did nothing. Didn't give a yes or a no. Until the girl gave up and found another church where she could have the shower.
The pastor is new. He has only been at the church for 6 months. I don't think he had a real problem with having the shower at the church, but I don't think expected people to just ignore this girl.
Any thoughts.
< Message edited by Dancre -- 10/7/2008 8:17:27 PM >
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 11:21:45 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
And honestly, I've never been to Shower, and I've been to a lot, where the pregnant girl ASKED for the party. That's pretty tacky in my book. Her friends should put the party together for her or the women of the church should have put it on for her and had it at someone else's house, but not at the church.
Yeah, I was trying to get more details on this earlier, but was unable to. The fact that she asked for a shower does rub me the wrong way as well, aside from all the rest of the story.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 11:32:02 PM
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myka
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It didn't sound to me like she was asking for them for a shower, just to have her shower at the church.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/7/2008 11:36:29 PM
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stellaluna
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Yeah...I wanted to be more clear on whether she wanted to use the building as though it were a "community center" or whether she wanted the women to host a shower for her at the church or whether she wanted the women to have a shower for her anywhere else. I think the women should have helped her get what she needed, but the rest of those little details to make a difference when it comes to using a church building. (IMO)
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/8/2008 1:19:58 PM
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Mark328
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Sounds to me like the women at this church wanted her to go away so the church can maintain a "squeaky clean" image.
As Christians, we should never, ever turn our backs on those who have erred and fallen. We should be supporting them, and not worry about "image". The Christian life is not perfect, and therefore we should not be so worried about "perfect image".
The notion that allowing her to have the shower at the church is the equivalent of celebrating her "immoral" lifestyle is absurd.
If we turned our backs to everybody who has fallen, all the churches would be empty because NOBODY would be welcome at any church...
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/8/2008 1:23:05 PM
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scottishmomma46
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AMEN, yes because Jesus sat down with the tax collectors and the people that back then did not want to have anything to do with. so sad that so called christians just do trully understand the word the true way that it must be known.
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faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/8/2008 2:22:44 PM
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scottishmomma46
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hey it's not me judging it's in the bible and your not mad at me your mad at the one who ispired the word of God.
i trully believe in the word of God and it sounds like you do not? Jesus is the only true way to repentance and he is the way the truth the life., and you and no one else can get me to change my mind.
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/8/2008 2:26:39 PM
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scottishmomma46
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Jesus said in Matthew if you have no sin cast the first stone? well, i am not judging you at all, i am also a sinner and i am a sinner that has been saved by grace the grace of a God who should of not saved me or should have not accepted me into his family!!! believe me before i was born again 7 yrs ago i was starting to dabble in the porn area and it is embrassing of what used to "turn me on" YUK well i know that God should NOT of accepted me after i repented i DO NOT deserve his GRACE and this is does not make me better than you or anyone else.
i am a true sinner saved by GRACE i am forever GRATEFUL for the grace and love and mercy of my lord that he has and is showing me on a daily basis.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/8/2008 2:35:01 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4273
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scottishmomma, I think christsstar's post was in response to the quote she included from rcjames. 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/8/2008 3:11:56 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: christsstar
That is the MOST generalistic, judgmental and ridiculous statement i have EVER heard. Every single Christian couple I know to have gotten married did so in teh church and went through counseling.
How DARE you judge people you don't know simply because of 1 sin.
Wow, christsstar, you must have read my post;
A Pastor of a Chruch should only marry Christians in the Church (or at all), and only then after much counselling, vetting, discussion, etc.
To marry a couple just becauxe "Their combs are getting red" is a recipe for disasster; period.
Sad to say that most "Christian" counselling is only a perfunctiionary event at the best; rarely does a Pastor delve deeply into the couple and their reasons and more improtantly their expections of tha marriage (hence the problems, when the itch werar off and the expectations are not met).
Now as to "!" sin; I certainly do not know how many times the girl committed fornication. If I were a betting man I would say it was a lifestyle and not "1" Sin. I base that purely on the biology that the chances of getting pregnant from one fornication is almost nill.
The girl a "Youth group girl. Long time attender. Not a member. Not saved" who just graduated, robably 18 or older was evidently living a lifestyle of sin (in the area of fornication at least).
She is not a child, she is old enough to know better, a long time attender (yet unsaved) of the Church.
To honor this lifestyle thourgh a Chruch function is totally out of bounds.
Now if the girl was saved and repentant over the sin it would certainly be a different story; but according to the OP she is not.
No Church shower; no way.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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if we are talking about un-wed teen preg? i do not know the whole story of what is the story, but i know that the situation is probably a uncomfortable area, but i know that if this young person is not having a abortion she is giving a life.
it's sounding like you are making fun of them having a baby shower to support this un-wed young mom? that is awful!! 
this young girl needs the support of all who want to give it to her in a very non-cutting down way. 
well maybe in your eyes it might be "tacky" but maybe she is not getting no support from her family and maybe she is reaching out? yes she should of made better choice and all, but..........she is giving life and not taking one. that is the point that your not seeing my friend in the eyes of Jesus we need to be there for her not cutting her down and not reaching out to her.
