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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/9/2008 2:15:22 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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You know, I had another thought about this thread last night and since there are so many questions about this girl possibly taking advantage or using the church, I wanted to address it.
I work in Pastoral Care and in my role there and in my private life, I never truly know if someone is taking advantage when we/I give to someone in need. At the church, we have particular criteria that someone asking for assistance must fit to be as sure as we can be that someone is not using us, but we/I never really know for sure. Do we stop ministering to the needy because there is a chance they have ill motives? No, because then we wouldn't be doing what Jesus called us to do.
My attitude towards this is that if the Lord leads me or the church to give to someone, it is between them and God if they are taking advantage and it is up to God to deal with them if they are...and I have no doubt that He will.
Let me also reiterate that at no time did the OP say the girl had been asking for anything prior to her request to have her shower at the church. Once again, I believe she wanted it there because it was the only place she received support and care (from Rafterman and his youth group) because it is obvious she had none from her family.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/9/2008 2:21:05 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scottishmomma46
at the church that we attend there is a down syndrome young lady and i am not sure if they totally understand or not, but i know God made them this way and he knows thier hearts. so i guess we can just be a witness to them and pray that they do understand.
Oh, and please re-read Rapterman's post...no one has Downs Syndrome. I thought he said the baby did end up having it, but after re-reading, it doesn't and I edited that post. Sorry for the confusion!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/9/2008 2:47:15 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
In my thinking, this young lady had attended this church for an amount of time that she believed she was part of this church family.
I agree...he said she was a "long time youth group attender," which brings up another point some have made here about her salvation.
Are we as Christians only to give to those who are saved? When a street person approaches us for help, are we to ask them whether or not they are saved before we give to them? I believe most here would say "No," yet that's the criteria some think should be required of this girl in order to to receive the help she needs.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/9/2008 4:28:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
In my thinking, this young lady had attended this church for an amount of time that she believed she was part of this church family.
I agree...he said she was a "long time youth group attender," which brings up another point some have made here about her salvation.
Are we as Christians only to give to those who are saved? When a street person approaches us for help, are we to ask them whether or not they are saved before we give to them? I believe most here would say "No," yet that's the criteria some think should be required of this girl in order to to receive the help she needs.
Church, by definition is a gathering of the Saints; the OP says the girl is not a Saint.
Church by Scrijpture is to grow Believers unto the stature of Christ; the OP states that she is not a Believer.
Using the Church to support a non-Christian, non-Believer in the celevration of the end run of their sin is a disaster. Plain and simple.
Now if the girr was repentantant and accepted Christ then it would be a far different situation; but that is not the case.
No Church spoonsered celebration of a fornication produced non-repentative sin situatjion; no way; no how.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/9/2008 4:30:12 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
In my thinking, this young lady had attended this church for an amount of time that she believed she was part of this church family.
I agree...he said she was a "long time youth group attender," which brings up another point some have made here about her salvation.
Are we as Christians only to give to those who are saved? When a street person approaches us for help, are we to ask them whether or not they are saved before we give to them? I believe most here would say "No," yet that's the criteria some think should be required of this girl in order to to receive the help she needs.
Church, by definition is a gathering of the Saints; the OP says the girl is not a Saint.
Church by Scrijpture is to grow Believers unto the stature of Christ; the OP states that she is not a Believer.
Using the Church to support a non-Christian, non-Believer in the celevration of the end run of their sin is a disaster. Plain and simple.
Now if the girr was repentantant and accepted Christ then it would be a far different situation; but that is not the case.
No Church spoonsered celebration of a fornication produced non-repentative sin situatjion; no way; no how.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/9/2008 6:22:04 PM
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Tashilein
Posts: 166
Joined: 9/30/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Church, by definition is a gathering of the Saints; the OP says the girl is not a Saint.
Church by Scrijpture is to grow Believers unto the stature of Christ; the OP states that she is not a Believer.
Going over the entire thread.... If I misunderstood something, please clarify for me. I'm still new and have a lot to learn and unlike the girl... I don't have a church I can go to and guide me and help me understand the Bible.
Obviously the girl isn't a saint. She sinned, she made mistakes. But what defines "saint"?
Nowhere in the thread did the OP state she isn't a believer. Ok, she's not saved, but does that automatically mean she isn't a believer? Is it possible to believe without being saved? There must be something. After all, she's been long time attender of that Church and youth group. I hope I'm right to assume, she's been attending from before she got pregnant.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 7:29:21 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tashilein
Going over the entire thread.... If I misunderstood something, please clarify for me. I'm still new and have a lot to learn and unlike the girl... I don't have a church I can go to and guide me and help me understand the Bible.
Obviously the girl isn't a saint. She sinned, she made mistakes. But what defines "saint"?
Nowhere in the thread did the OP state she isn't a believer. Ok, she's not saved, but does that automatically mean she isn't a believer? Is it possible to believe without being saved? There must be something. After all, she's been long time attender of that Church and youth group. I hope I'm right to assume, she's been attending from before she got pregnant.
Is the New Testament 'Saint" is used to refer to a Christian (A Believer who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit). The original post was very definate about her not being a believer.
The young lady was evidnetly attending the Church only for social reasens, and not spiritual ones. "Which is a sad, but not unusual reason for many to attend Chruch.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:14:32 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1778
Joined: 5/23/2006
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quote:
Is it possible to believe without being saved?
No, it isn't.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:25:05 AM
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stellaluna
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I still can't figure out why people are hung up on doing any of this stuff at the church building. Should the church have made sure the girl's needs were ministered to? Sure. Should they have bent over backwards to let her have a shower in the building? No. Membership has its privileges. Would you guys be upset if she wasn't a member of the country club and they said she couldn't have her shower there?
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:27:42 AM
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scottishmomma46
Posts: 178
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yes it does seem that this subject is getting run into ground?! well i agree that is enough and yes the church should have ministered to her and maybe they have or did. so we need to let go of this and let God take over.
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faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:31:34 AM
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stellaluna
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The OP apparently continues to be in touch with this girl. I'm more interested now in the "aftermath." Did she have her shower at the other church? Will she continue to go to the new church or return to the old one? Is she still uninterested in becoming a believer?
I didn't ever get the impression that she was mentally challenged in such a way that she didn't understand salvation or anything else.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:34:15 AM
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scottishmomma46
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like i stated in my last post only God knows the true situation and i am sure he will send those to minister to her as he knows the time
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 11:34:36 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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I do not think anyone ....whether the so called nasty ladies at church...or people responding on this thread.....has 'no' love for the the pregnant teen. It becomes apparent that (some) people do not know what the Bible actually teaches with regard to the situation described in this thread.
There seems to be some idea of not offending the poor girl.
How about not offending God? Yes, church is a building etc etc.....but it still or should still, stand for something and how about standing for the Holiness of God. Has God changed into some sort of cosmic lover that we now think He no longer frowns on sin and forgets what fornication is because there is a baby involved? Sin is not a mistake and this baby is born into sin just like the rest of us. Only God can forgive sin and only God can change the life of the unwed teen and her baby.
Again, a home would have been appropriate....support from the church members would be appropriate....but holding the shower in church was and is not. If you cannot see that, then I would advise getting out the Bible and study what Scripture says regarding sin and how it poisons everything it touches. I said it before, I'll say it again: No one sins in a vacumn. This child absolutely will live with the sin its mother committed and no amount of 'love' on the part of Christians will change that. Unless the girl repents and understands that what she did is sin and not a mistake, you have a politically correct Christianity, not the Christianity that Jesus died for.
God never intended for children to be born out outside of a marriage.....and at the same time He does not want anyone to die because of their sin. We have a sin problem here that is bigger than whether or not the shower should be held in church.
Just a little leaven changes the whole loaf....even if that leaven is a teenage girl. Why should women who understand this be called judgemental? Do you not see that they are actually in accord with God's attitude to sin? What is the matter in churches these days. Sin has become a 'mistake' instead of what it really is. The poison that separates us from God and sends us to hell.
Again, GOD, more than anyone of you who disagree with what I wrote, wants this young woman to repent. But you know, condoning what has resulted from her illicit union is not the way that is going to happen. She could have been shown all the love in the world outside the church in a home.
I am not an 'old lady' or someone who thumps people over the head with a Bible. I have lived in sin, I understand the consequences and I only got out of my sin when I was 'cut' off from those Christians enabling me.
I am well aware that some will totally disagree with me, but I will side with God....not wishy washy Christianity or people who think their love, instead of God's love through Christ, is the answer for the young lady.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 4:01:36 PM
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Mark328
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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna Membership has its privileges. Would you guys be upset if she wasn't a member of the country club and they said she couldn't have her shower there?
Comparing churches to country clubs? That's EXACTLY what's wrong with churches these days...
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 4:18:22 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4273
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
This child absolutely will live with the sin its mother committed and no amount of 'love' on the part of Christians will change that
That child's sin has nothing to do with their mother's sin. Especially if the child becomes a Christian, then they are a new creation.
quote:
I am not an 'old lady' or someone who thumps people over the head with a Bible. I have lived in sin, I understand the consequences and I only got out of my sin when I was 'cut' off from those Christians enabling me.
I am well aware that some will totally disagree with me, but I will side with God....not wishy washy Christianity or people who think their love, instead of God's love through Christ, is the answer for the young lady.
I am not a wishy washy Christian, but Christians cannot sit in their ivory towers forever and look down their noses at someone who seems "less" than they are. That is not what God does. He calls us to action, to get our hands messy in the lives of other people. Not just to sit back and pronounce "sin" in the lives of others.
I agree, without salvation it really doesn't matter...cause this girl is going straight to hell if she doesnt confess Jesus as her Lord and Savior. However, in scripture, there are too many passages and lessons about serving others without an agenda, loving our enemies and so forth to simply turn our backs.
And I'm no longer talking just about this one girl...but so many other people out there who feel they are never "good enough" to darken the walls of a church. People who need discipleship, need to see what Christian love truly looks like and not the insincerity we sometimes make of it.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 4:55:38 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
That child's sin has nothing to do with their mother's sin. Especially if the child becomes a Christian, then they are a new creation.
Well, that child will be born in sin regardless of whether or not momma sinned. The point is and the point was, that ALL of us are born in sin. I don't think you read my post too carefully.
Go ahead and love the unrepentant girl ... just accept her ...love, love love.....why did Jesus die if all we have to do is love? You cannot allow people to 'carry on' in their sins with no consequences. That is political, not biblical. And wishy washy is exactly that....Christianity is supposed to change people not people change Christianity. Paul certainly did not accept or condone sin in the church.....why would you want to?
Christians in ivory towers? Oh, we are way past that. Christians have long ago jumped out of the ivory towers and are doing their best to look like the rest of the world, act like the rest of the world and sound the same too. Why should this girl be made to feel like she is some kind of project for everyone to love? You don't love sin, you expose it.
I am generalizing in the above paragraph, so don't jump on that and tell me you are not doing that.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 5:13:05 PM
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Mark328
Posts: 179
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark328
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna Membership has its privileges. Would you guys be upset if she wasn't a member of the country club and they said she couldn't have her shower there?
Comparing churches to country clubs? That's EXACTLY what's wrong with churches these days...
I personally think what's wrong with them is that people get hung up on things that don't matter and miss the bigger picture.
(And you obviously haven't read anything I've posted in this thread.)
Sorry, stellaluna. My comment wasn't directed towards you. But the country club comment was noteworthy. My statement was a statement about churches and not directed towards you at all. My apologies for the confusion.
I have read your posts here, by the way.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 5:23:37 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4258
Joined: 4/11/2005
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I still think the country club comment is valid here. No one would raise an eyebrow if a country club turned someone away who wasn't a member. But for the biblical standards that have been listed here, there are some who have gone into attack mode, as though a church is a community center. Churches are allowed to make their own rules about who uses facilities and what they use them for. The bible does offer some guidelines as to how Christians should treat unbelievers in relation to the body of believers. I'm not sure why people can't get past that in this thread.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 6:46:53 PM
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myka
Posts: 810
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The problem is that in Biblical terms the Church is not referred to as a building or facilities; it is always a body of believers. Love for our neighbors as ourselves is part of the 'greatest commandment' according to Jesus. The letters are addressed to believers who are continuing to sin without repentance; they do not address unbelievers. I do agree that we need to be tough on sin, but the toughness needs to be inside the church rather than someone who is an unbeliever -- after all, how would they be able to not sin without the help of the Holy Spirit. Also, there are plenty of sins committed by Christians every day, and if we were to bar anyone who had 'unconfessed sin' to not use the church, well, it would probably be pretty empty. I think that this particular sin is one that is often singled out especially for women because they are the only ones with the physical consequences of the sin.
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amen to all that you have stated yes that baby was concieved out of marriage and NO God does look over a sin he knows that a sin is sin.
RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 
yes mark it's awful that churches are turning the house of God into cassino nites and car clubs, and it's wrong.