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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 6:53:57 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
quote:
Is it possible to believe without being saved?
No, it isn't.
Well maybe;
(Jas 2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(Jas 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 8:01:25 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
The problem is that in Biblical terms the Church is not referred to as a building or facilities; it is always a body of believers.
You know, that example is fine only as long as we are talking about who Christ actually came to save. No, He didn't come to save a building. But tell me, what is a bar? Or a movie theater? We expect something when we go into those establishments. Don't you think we should expect something when we go into a church? HUH? 
quote:
I do agree that we need to be tough on sin, but the toughness needs to be inside the church rather than someone who is an unbeliever -- after all, how would they be able to not sin without the help of the Holy Spirit. Also, there are plenty of sins committed by Christians every day,
Hmmm.....in one sentence you say toughness on sin should not be against unbelievers as only the Holy Spirit can help them stop sinning....then, you say there are plenty of sins committed by Christians every day....so, which is it? The Holy Spirit reproves of sin....not us. We don't have to put up with it either though.
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I think that this particular sin is one that is often singled out especially for women because they are the only ones with the physical consequences of the sin.
That's not how God sees it. They are equal before Him. Pray for him too.
This is not about unconfessed sin.....this is about obvious flying in your face sin as in so what I am pregnant you are a church you are supposed to love me no matter what so be a Christian and let me do my thing and you do your thing and give me gifts. Sad state of affairs You can't keep changing the rules. God doesn't.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/10/2008 8:10:43 PM >
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 8:04:29 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
I'm no longer talking just about this one girl.
Why not? It's a typical example. Maybe you need a thread with a more general type of topic. 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 8:07:27 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Hey, if you think I'm tough.....wait till Judgement Day! 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 9:43:44 PM
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myka
Posts: 810
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quote:
This is not about unconfessed sin.....this is about obvious flying in your face sin as in so what I am pregnant you are a church you are supposed to love me no matter what so be a Christian and let me do my thing and you do your thing and give me gifts.
There is nowhere that it was mentioned that she demanded that they love her and give her gifts. She asked to use the church for her shower; not that the church give her a shower.
quote:
Hmmm.....in one sentence you say toughness on sin should not be against unbelievers as only the Holy Spirit can help them stop sinning....then, you say there are plenty of sins committed by Christians every day....so, which is it? The Holy Spirit reproves of sin....not us. We don't have to put up with it either though.
The difference is that Christians have the help of the Holy Spirit and are at least convicted of their sins and led to repentance. Non-believers don't have that conviction, at least yet. I agree that we should not have to 'put up' with sins from believers. Although, it is not our job to convict people of sin -- that would be the Holy Spirit, and with believer, we do love and exhort and encourage one another toward good works (and away from sin) speaking the truth in love. Saying that one is disappointed that a non-believer sins is wrong on so many levels.
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That's not how God sees it. They are equal before Him. Pray for him too.
I know that they are equal before God, but often times, women who are unmarried and pregnant are subject to scorn from Christians because they are pregnant.(which is an indication that the girl did not have an abortion, a good thing according to most of us) There are other things that are sinful, also. Do we require all people who use the church building to be repentant believers and 'fessed up? How do we regulate that? (yes, I am including myself in this) What if they commit a sin while in the church building or on the way to the building? What if the church meets in a building that is not owned by the church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:11:46 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1778
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devils believe, but just what do they believe?
I know that has nothing to do with a girl being pregnant, but it is an interesting topic. If you don't believe God enough to accept Him as your personal Saviour and confess His redeeming sacrifice on the cross then you truly do not believe imo.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/10/2008 10:58:52 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
This is not about unconfessed sin.....this is about obvious flying in your face sin as in so what I am pregnant you are a church you are supposed to love me no matter what so be a Christian and let me do my thing and you do your thing and give me gifts.
There is nowhere that it was mentioned that she demanded that they love her and give her gifts. She asked to use the church for her shower; not that the church give her a shower.
quote:
Hmmm.....in one sentence you say toughness on sin should not be against unbelievers as only the Holy Spirit can help them stop sinning....then, you say there are plenty of sins committed by Christians every day....so, which is it? The Holy Spirit reproves of sin....not us. We don't have to put up with it either though.
The difference is that Christians have the help of the Holy Spirit and are at least convicted of their sins and led to repentance. Non-believers don't have that conviction, at least yet. I agree that we should not have to 'put up' with sins from believers. Although, it is not our job to convict people of sin -- that would be the Holy Spirit, and with believer, we do love and exhort and encourage one another toward good works (and away from sin) speaking the truth in love. Saying that one is disappointed that a non-believer sins is wrong on so many levels.
quote:
That's not how God sees it. They are equal before Him. Pray for him too.
I know that they are equal before God, but often times, women who are unmarried and pregnant are subject to scorn from Christians because they are pregnant.(which is an indication that the girl did not have an abortion, a good thing according to most of us) There are other things that are sinful, also. Do we require all people who use the church building to be repentant believers and 'fessed up? How do we regulate that? (yes, I am including myself in this) What if they commit a sin while in the church building or on the way to the building? What if the church meets in a building that is not owned by the church?
You have basically started another thread here, so it would be best to actually go ahead and do that as you are way off topic. I answered you last round, but you are still going off on a different topic, so...... 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/11/2008 1:06:34 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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Oh, for Pete's sake, this thread has gone off on such a rural route! This isn't about what the devil knows, it's not about country clubs, and it's not about anyone else's church.
It's about a 16 year old pregnant girl whose needs were not met at the OP's church because of a bunch of petty, judgemental women, remember?
At least if we're going to drag it out forever, lets stay on topic, how about it?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/11/2008 1:54:07 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4258
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quote:
So, I'm a youth leader.
Small church. Less than 50 people.
Youth group girl. Long time attender. Not a member. Not saved.
She just graduated and is pregnant. She is not married and is not getting married to the father. (good thing, he is bad news)
She wanted to have her baby shower at the church.
Some of the women said no way! They were so disapointed in her etc...
I explained to the women leaders in our church council meeting that this may be the last opportunity that we have to witness to her and love her and bring her closer to us and that they should take the lead have the baby shower at the church.
They did nothing. Didn't give a yes or a no. Until the girl gave up and found another church where she could have the shower.
The pastor is new. He has only been at the church for 6 months. I don't think he had a real problem with having the shower at the church, but I don't think expected people to just ignore this girl.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/11/2008 5:54:26 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Oh, for Pete's sake, this thread has gone off on such a rural route! This isn't about what the devil knows, it's not about country clubs, and it's not about anyone else's church.
It's about a 16 year old pregnant girl whose needs were not met at the OP's church because of a bunch of petty, judgemental women, remember?
At least if we're going to drag it out forever, lets stay on topic, how about it?
Question;
If there had been a boy, a long time attender of the youth group, who is now 18 and not saved nor repentant who had molested someone or stabbed someone in a bar fight, got caught selling drugs or some other nefarious deed; who wanted to use the Church for a birthday party before he went off to prison. Should he be allowed to use the Church.
Would those of you who think it is all right to throw a shower in the Church for an unsaved unrepentant fornicator, let the unsaved unrepentant molester or whatever use the Church also?
Just asking.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/11/2008 7:42:06 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Oh, for Pete's sake, this thread has gone off on such a rural route! This isn't about what the devil knows, it's not about country clubs, and it's not about anyone else's church.
It's about a 16 year old pregnant girl whose needs were not met at the OP's church because of a bunch of petty, judgemental women, remember?
At least if we're going to drag it out forever, lets stay on topic, how about it?
Question;
If there had been a boy, a long time attender of the youth group, who is now 18 and not saved nor repentant who had molested someone or stabbed someone in a bar fight, got caught selling drugs or some other nefarious deed; who wanted to use the Church for a birthday party before he went off to prison. Should he be allowed to use the Church.
Would those of you who think it is all right to throw a shower in the Church for an unsaved unrepentant fornicator, let the unsaved unrepentant molester or whatever use the Church also?
Just asking.
Thanks
RC
RC, you know I love ya, but give me a break!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 8:14:09 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
RC, you know I love ya, but give me a break!
I am just trying to understand the thought pattern that passes over one sin, but comdemns another.
Seriously, if one unrepentant unsaved sinner can ge oggfled over and permitted the use of the Church, why would other unrepentant unsaved sinners not be afforded the same courtesy.
In my Bible, fornication is listed in the same passage right along with the "Big boy" sins of murder etc.
I guess it boils down to what one considers a Church to be; I consider it to be a place for the "Gathering of the Saints", a "House of Prayer" as Jesus referred to His Fathers house. Others seem to think of it as a community center or some such.
I consider any function in the Church buiilding to be condoned by the Church congregants as a whole, and as such I feel that the Church building should be used only for Church functions (as in growing the Saints (Believers) unto the stature of Christ.
We have a number of groups that are formed from the folks at our Church; cooking teams, shooting and hunting club, etc. but they are not a function of the Church and its Biblical function and as such do not use the building for meetings etc.
Anyway Kat D, you know I love you also, and it does not do damage for folks who love and respect each other to disagree once in a while.
Have a great Lord's Day.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 1:35:04 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3142
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
Anyway Kat D, you know I love you also, and it does not do damage for folks who love and respect each other to disagree once in a while.
Thanks, RC, and I agree completely.
I guess I just come at it from a different angle.
I don't think because this girl has sinned and hasn't accepted the Lord, that negates (what I feel is) the church's duty to fulfill it's charge to help the needy by helping her. Again, maybe not a shower at the church, but in some way. It was the women's attitude towards this girl that I felt was offensive and ungodly.
We recently had a pregnant (by her pimp) prostitute (with a prior to getting pregnant heroin habit) start coming to our church and our church reached out to her by supplying her with everything she needed for those babies. We counseled her about what it means to repent and to accept and walk with the Lord, but our help was not contingent on whether or not she did that. That's just the way our church operates. Of course getting her saved is a priority, but we saw her need and we met it as we feel God has called us to do.
Again, we certainly can agree to disagree about this...no harm, no foul! 
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 3:24:08 PM
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scottishmomma46
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yes i know this has gone on and on, but i have to say if was in a church and one of our teen's got preg, i am sorry to say if you were in the congreation? and if you spoke this way to her? i would have to put my arms around you and say..........i love you and like Jesus says in Matthew if you be with out sin....cast the first stone.
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 3:32:56 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scottishmomma46
yes i know this has gone on and on, but i have to say if was in a church and one of our teen's got preg, i am sorry to say if you were in the congreation? and if you spoke this way to her? i would have to put my arms around you and say..........i love you and like Jesus says in Matthew if you be with out sin....cast the first stone.
So you do accept fornicators in your Church?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 3:36:05 PM
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scottishmomma46
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well Jesus did say that they church is for the "sick".
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 3:51:23 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scottishmomma46
well Jesus did say that they church is for the "sick".
Chapter and verse please.
The definition of Church (Ekklesia) is a gathering of the Saints (Believers, those filled with the Holy Spirit). Not a hospital for the sick.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians to expell a someone who was committing fornication;
(1Co 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
And to reinstate them only upon repentance. and another place;
(2Th 3:6) Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
To withdraw from those that walk disorderly; not to welcome them in.
The purpose of Church is well defined in;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Please note Scripture says for the perfecting of the Saints not fornicators.
If the young lady was repentive and saved it would be a far different situation.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 4:25:17 PM
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myka
Posts: 810
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quote:
Paul says in 1 Corinthians to expell a someone who was committing fornication;
(1Co 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
And to reinstate them only upon repentance. and another place;
(2Th 3:6) Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
To withdraw from those that walk disorderly; not to welcome them in.
In both of the quoted verses, Paul was addressing churches, bodies of believers, concerning believers who were continuing in sinful lifestyles after belief. There is nothing about casting out unbelievers who sin...
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 5:42:13 PM
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scottishmomma46
Posts: 178
Joined: 4/7/2006
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yes the church (the body of christ) is for edifying, and for fellowshipping and the such for the believers, but also the born again belivers were also lost like those who are sick.
even though i am born again i am still a sinner saved by grace.
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 6:40:41 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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 Being off topic in this thread seems to be 'the' topic. You will not solve the endemic sin prob in this thread. If people would stay on topic, it would not be so......well, tiresome.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 7:19:39 PM
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scottishmomma46
Posts: 178
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well i do not see myself being off the topic, iam just making a point of how we need to be more loving towards those who make the life choices. all of us at one time also made some not very good choices. i am just trying to show compassion and some understanding to those who are not showing it to those who are hurting.
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/12/2008 11:38:30 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
well i do not see myself being off the topic
I wasn't even responding to you when I wrote that, but if the shoe fits...unless you are one of the people who post under more than one name?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/13/2008 8:57:27 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
In both of the quoted verses, Paul was addressing churches, bodies of believers, concerning believers who were continuing in sinful lifestyles after belief. There is nothing about casting out unbelievers who sin...
Of course he was because Church is for Christians (Christians not walking in sin) ;that is my point.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/13/2008 9:18:38 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1778
Joined: 5/23/2006
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Isn't the GREATEST GIFT Salvation?
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