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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:17:56 AM
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galadriel2
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I think also that it would probably be one of the best things that could happen to America - that the economy go south. I can't think of anything else that would most likely bring people back to Christ than that.
God bless,
Galadriel2
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:26:11 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
Why bring up Bill Clinton? He actually did a good job w/ economy - just look at the numbers.
That's the point of my post. Bill did not do anything for the economy - the numbers have nothing to do with him. Unless you are willing to admit that the 4 worst economic years in the past 40 years were the fault of Democrat Prez Carter and the Dems controlling congress. Can't have it both ways. And in that case, neither party has anything good to offer the economy (with which I would agree).
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:29:16 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I think also that it would probably be one of the best things that could happen to America - that the economy go south. I can't think of anything else that would most likely bring people back to Christ than that.
God bless,
Galadriel2
You mean like 9/11 or (name any catastrophe in history)?
Persecution of believers might have a positive effect by driving the hypocrites away, but just bad times only brings temporary, superficial numbers to churches.
Bad times do not nor never have produced a significant flood of permanent converts to Christ. Only the direct intervention of God the Holy Spirit can do that.
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:32:03 AM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
...which makes it acceptable because?
oh wait, it doesn't!
So then you agree that the only reason Bush I & II, Reagan, and Nixon (along with Carter) didn't get impeached has a lot more to do with luck than character, right?
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:36:23 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Personally I do not think a depression is eminent, whether the "Bail-out" happens or not.
Businesses built on bad paper and accounting fluff need to fail, overpriced houses and other real estate need to devalue to their real value and the market is making a major correction that everyone knew had to come at some time.
Thanks
RC
For a preacher, RC has his economic perspectives about right  . The great depression was caused by a number of different factors, with only a few parallels to today's crisis. The great depression was in part created by a government that made an economically incorrect judgement at nearly every possible turn. We've learned a lot since then about what not to do, and for the most part we're not doing it.
Even the recession of the early 1980's has only a limited comparability to today's crisis.
It's not even certain that we'll actually have a recession (in GDP terms). Certainly more likely than it was 6 months ago, but not a foregone conclusion.
It's unlikely that any recession will even reach the severity of that in the 1980's. The 92 recession is the more likely scenario, assuming some form of a fix for the financial infrastructure is found.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:51:35 AM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
...which makes it acceptable because?
oh wait, it doesn't!
So then you agree that the only reason Bush I & II, Reagan, and Nixon (along with Carter) didn't get impeached has a lot more to do with luck than character, right?
... non-sequitor anyone?
_____________________________
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Good – God = 0
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 11:54:57 AM
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galadriel2
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Thanks for the reminder, JimboFletch, that it is only the Holy Spirit who brings about conversions. This is true.
One thing is that trials always purify and strengthen the church. The Holy Spirit would be more apt to work through the church to save then. Christ also makes the point that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get saved. James, in James 5 talks about how God has made the poor rich in faith. Seems then that according to the Word your chances of getting saved are better if you are poor. That is what is important - where a person spends eternity.
I personally also am sick of the sin - the profound greed, self-righteousness, and slander. I look forward to the Lord stopping it and to living in a country where righteousness reigns - a world to which Christ has returned and is ruling, in other words.
God bless,
Galadriel2
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 12:14:01 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
...Christ also makes the point that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get saved...
Jesus finished that point with, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Poverty isn't a panacea of faith in itself either. Try finding stats on the number of the rich who hold up convenience stores or banks...
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 12:34:47 PM
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AdrianaS
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Well talking from experience about going to depression in a 3rd world country perspective, what I think is if the USA goes to depression will not look like that at all..
I do think just the excess of stuff that does not make sense anyways people spend with etc and luxuries are not be around..people will have to choose what the real priorities are. I think.
Is not like USA will be just like a 3rd world country all of the suddenly... 
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 1:28:26 PM
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galadriel2
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Thanks again, so much, JimboFletch, for your response. I did think of the verse that you bring up about 'with God all things are possible', but I didn't post it because I like to try and keep my posts as short as possible and then also because even though 'with God all things are possible', even the salvation of the rich, He doesn't choose to save very many of them as 1 Cor. 1:28-31 says - 'For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.' (vv. 28, 29) And again, the James verse indicates that God choses the poor to be rich in faith. It isn't, as you say, that poverty is a ticket to salvation and faith; but it is in the deep recesses of God that He tends to choose them over the rich for His own good purposes - as Scripture indicates.
God bless,
Galadriel2
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 2:50:13 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Clinton wasn't impeached for his sexual indiscretions. he was impeached for lying under oath.
Yes, lying aout his sexual insdiiscretions.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 2:55:32 PM
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rcjames
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Right now the Dow is up right at 400 points for the day.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 3:08:32 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
...but it is in the deep recesses of God that He tends to choose them over the rich for His own good purposes - as Scripture indicates.
First, most of what we'd categorize as the poorest in this country would have been considered well-to-do in 1st century Israel.
Second, the biggest advantage of the poor is the humility to know who is their source of all material blessings - God, not themselves. It is a consistent message throughout scripture that God gives more grace to the humble, regardless of the position.
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 3:23:55 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
Why bring up Bill Clinton? He actually did a good job w/ economy - just look at the numbers.
Clinton had the good fortune to sail along on his inheritance from the elder Bush.
That's what few seem to realize...the current administration deals with what was left to them...not what they've been able to bring about. The next president will be working under Bush the Younger's policies, but he'll get the blame or glory for it all. It's an old story.
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 3:41:58 PM
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galadriel2
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I agree, JimboFletch, that there are very few truly 'poor' people in America and so James' admonition to the rich would apply more to Americans than his admonition to the poor.
I think though that the Word teaches that God tends to save more poor people than He does rich and also that it teaches the human side of things - that it is easier for a poor person to come to a realization of His need of God and His salvation than for a rich person to do so.
God bless and thanks for all the responses,
Galadriel2
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 9/30/2008 7:32:22 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I agree, JimboFletch, that there are very few truly 'poor' people in America and so James' admonition to the rich would apply more to Americans than his admonition to the poor.
I think though that the Word teaches that God tends to save more poor people than He does rich and also that it teaches the human side of things - that it is easier for a poor person to come to a realization of His need of God and His salvation than for a rich person to do so.
God bless and thanks for all the responses,
Galadriel2
I've always believed that we're all "rich" in some capacity or other...and not always in a positive way. Why, even some of the most materially poor people are extremely "rich" in pride. One can even be rich in knowledge, but poor in wisdom.
I think we do the scriptures a disservice in limiting the "camel's eye" passage to material wealth, only. Look at the Pharisees, for instance. While they may or may not have been "rich" materially, they were certainly rich in knowledge, pride, etc.
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 9:31:38 AM
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cog41
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quote:
The reality though is that if those businesses fail - people will suffer, not just greedy corporate execs.
The reality is businesses don't always suceed, and when they fail the federal can't always bail them out with taxpayer dollars. We can't pick and choose who to save based on size and income. We treat it as a triage for mass casualty, we can't award mismanagement and corruption with taxpayer support.
My 401/457 and pension investments maiy and will be effected but i believe it will right itself.
The federal govt and leadership and the leeches that support them in the cush appointments and kickbacks are to blame. The business world needs to hold itself to higher ethical standards in running these businesses/banks and corps. And those who break the law should be punished jsut like those of the working class America.
WWII did help get the US out of the depression,but if you don't think new deal programs didn't help feed America you need to talk to a few more of that generation.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 10:46:07 AM
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galadriel2
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Thanks a lot, Peter_Gunn, for the input. I think though that we do Scripture a service when we keep verses meaning and being used for what they were intended for. Jesus means exactly what He is saying by saying that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of needle than for a rich to get saved. I don't see Scripture teaching that a person rich in pride (doesn't submit to the Gospel, i.e.) is rich. It teaches that they are enemies of God and that God fights against them. I don't think that that is an indication of prosperity in terms of how the Bible defines it. The Bible does teach that those 'rich toward God' are truly rich - in other words - those who are in Christ and so are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Him (Eph. 1:3). I understand what you are saying, but it can make things very confusing when we drift from a Biblical view and definition of things.
God bless,
Galadriel2
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 10:57:13 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Right now the Dow is up right at 400 points for the day.
Thanks
RC
It looks like the worst thing that happened is banks are getting much stricter on who gets a loan. That makes perfect sense to me since if a person does not have the income to pay back a loan they should not get one. Also if a person has a history of not paying their bills or money they borrowed then they should not be getting a loan.
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<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 11:33:40 AM
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leonfigg3
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I do not fulkly comprehend all the little details about the economy. but over all I would say that we are headed for a depression, and have been for several years.
In some respects, I would agree that all the historical, and typical signs of an economic failure/ slow down/ collapse do not seem to be present right now, but it is possible that what we are seeing is only the beginning. What we are seeing is the strengths and weaknessws of all the safety nets that have bene put into place since the last great depression, safety nets that have not been properly cared/ protected/ funded. Safety nets that are bound to collapse from the weight of our government bailing out one company/ industry after another, not insuring the money it pays out is properly accounted for, and funding pork barrel projects and ear marks that benefit only a relatively few number of people instead of the general public.
Blaming a particular political party, or administration may be fun for some people and a way to absolve one of his part in the mess, but it fails to address the real issues. The fact is that we voters tend to vote politicians into office who do not tend to tell us what we need to hear. We vote politicians into office who promise to bring the largest share of federal dollars to our communities and states. We vote for politicians who promise us that the government will take care of everything. We can really care less what the true state of the economy is in. We can care less how politicians play with economic numbers during administrations and during elections.
I find it a little interesting that people seem to have forgotten that back in the 20's economic collpase was the last thing on people's minds because of all the positive things going on in the country at the time. It was also during the 20s that the economy began to collapse but all the bad news about the economy was covered over, shipped overseas and hid from the American people until it could not be hidden any longer. It took years for it to get as bad as it was, just like it has taken years for our economy to get to its present state.
I may have some historic facts wrong. We may indeed just be facing a correction in the economic life of our country. So was the Great Depression.
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 11:35:55 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
We've been heading for one since the day Bush was elected.
You're absolutely right! There was no way Bush could have ever cleaned up the mess he inherited.
If a surplus is a "mess", then let's keep "messing up"! Surplus to $11 trillion dollar debt in two terms. Way to go Bush! Thank God for Presidential term limits!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 12:01:24 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
Thanks a lot, Peter_Gunn, for the input. I think though that we do Scripture a service when we keep verses meaning and being used for what they were intended for. Jesus means exactly what He is saying by saying that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of needle than for a rich to get saved. I don't see Scripture teaching that a person rich in pride (doesn't submit to the Gospel, i.e.) is rich. It teaches that they are enemies of God and that God fights against them. I don't think that that is an indication of prosperity in terms of how the Bible defines it. The Bible does teach that those 'rich toward God' are truly rich - in other words - those who are in Christ and so are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Him (Eph. 1:3). I understand what you are saying, but it can make things very confusing when we drift from a Biblical view and definition of things.
God bless,
Galadriel2
I believe you're right in that this scripture is referring to material wealth...just be sure to read the entire text and keep it in context! "With God, all things are possible." (But Jimbo already pointed that out and I digress!)
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 12:38:06 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5658
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I believe you're right in that this scripture is referring to material wealth...just be sure to read the entire text and keep it in context! "With God, all things are possible." (But Jimbo already pointed that out and I digress!)
Being poor is subjective, and as one who has lived and worked as a missionary in a number of third world countries I say there are "No" poor people in the U.S.
Even the homeless folks hfere are "Rich" compared to most folks in the world as they can get medical treatment, govenment handouts, go to soup kitchens, etc.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are we headed for a depression? - 10/1/2008 12:48:52 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
I find it a little interesting that people seem to have forgotten that back in the 20's economic collpase was the last thing on people's minds because of all the positive things going on in the country at the time. It was also during the 20s that the economy began to collapse but all the bad news about the economy was covered over, shipped overseas and hid from the American people until it could not be hidden any longer. It took years for it to get as bad as it was, just like it has taken years for our economy to get to its present state.
What people also tend to forget is all the mistakes that happened at the federal, state, and local level that exacerbated that crisis and made it far, far worse than it ever should have been. Tax rates were increased as the economy headed downhill, the money supply was tightened, tariff's were increased, etc. Just about every possible mistake that could have been made indeed WAS made. There's no reason to think that people today would be this stupid. Today, we have the benefit of that historical lesson. There really is no reason to think that we would repeat that unfortunate period in US economic history.
Today, we're lowering tax burdens in the face of a downturn, lowered interest rates, and are resisting calls to restrict international trade. We're making at the collective level decisions that are opposite to the bad calls made in the 20's and 30's.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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