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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 12:10:00 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am curious as to how Satan's fall could have occurred at the point of tempting Eve. Temptation is being tempted to evil, Satan was tempting Eve with evil, which means he had to already have been evil. His temptation was obviously the outworking of his evilness. And he was successful in his evil desire to become god, if only god of this world, and even that only temporarily.
Why do you have to be evil to do evil?
Obviously, at some point, one way or another, a non-evil being committed evil.
Part of the answer comes from Isaiah 14:
“ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Notice the five "I wills" where Lucifer says he wants God's job: idolatry. Lucifer means "light bearer" and he was a high ranking angel, and a third of the angels fell with him (which means there are twice as many good angels as bad ones; just FYI  ).
He was inhabiting the serpent somehow (I don't understand this; snakes lost their legs over this incident) when Eve was tempted. So evil was already in existance before Adam sinned; the "how" of the beginning of sin in a perfect world isn't given to us in Scripture so we don't know.
God deals with evil at least partly (any one studied this in detail?) - for example, American laws on murder are based on Old Testament laws which give distinction partly based on intention. And Jesus said that evil comes from our hearts, not from things going on outside of us. Sin starts inside us and shows itself in our actions:
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death James 1:14,15
_____________________________
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 3:30:31 AM
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SonInMe1
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This is truly the root of all evil...
free will.
satan had it. Adam and eve had it. We have it.
Without it, we would all obey God and no one would sin...and there would be no evil.
Thing is..there really wouldn't be good either. Just blind obediance. Automitons. Life without breath. Taste without flavor.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 7:27:26 AM
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iampiper13
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By George I think hes/shes got it!! I'd never thought about it that deep. In order to choose(free will) selfishness, greed, envy..... we'd have to have the freedom to do so, which God gives to us. WOW
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God Bless
Steve
Psalms 138:3 CEV When I asked for your help, you answered my prayer and gave me courage.
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 8:03:25 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
Pride
Correct answer!
Pride was the sin that caused Satan to rebel, Adam & Eve to fall, King Saul to be rejected, and is the source of all greed, lust, war, and human conflict. Its opposite, humility, is what God blesses and gives more grace above all other traits.
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 9:31:45 AM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
The root of all evil is Adam or man. Adam sinned and caused sin to enter the world. Before Adam sinned there was no evil, the creation was prefect.
Bob
If evil didn't exist, then why was there a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden in your opinion?
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 4:04:25 PM
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bob97
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Hi raivyne...
Excellent question and difficult to answer.
First of all I don’t really think the tree of good and evil offered any great secret knowledge to Adam and Eve but it did give them the opportunity to disobey God. When they consumed the apple, God released them from their innocence’s. As I said on another thread; God gave man the choice to have this dominion under God's guidance and principles or what we might call good, righteousness, wholeness (holiness) or to do so without God's guidance or what we might call rebelliousness, selfishness Godlessness.
Man chose to exercise his authority without God and man was lost to sin…evil came into the world. Man brought evil into this world but God allowed it to happen.
God wanted man to have a choice…He didn’t want robots without a choice to love Him. God knew Satan would tempt His creation and He knew that they would fail the test but I guess that was a part of their growing process…sometimes you just have to turn your kids loose and let them make their mistakes.
God wants man to achieve salvation through faith not blind obedience.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 4:10:34 PM
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bob97
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Evil might have existed in another time or place in Gods realm but I don’t think it existed here on this earth…God’s creation on this planet was pure in the beginning…I don’t think anyone can say differently.
I think when we consider as to “did evil exist prior to Adam and Eve” we need to put things in context. All we are told in the bible is what has occurred on this earth and contained within its history.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 4:11:35 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Man chose to exercise his authority without God and man was lost to sin…evil came into the world. Man brought evil into this world but God allowed it to happen.
Bob
Are you saying that man caused evil? Or that man chose evil?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 8:49:01 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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I’m saying that man was the catalyst that allowed sin to enter this world…man chose sin over God.
I said “Man chose to exercise his authority without God and man was lost to sin…evil came into the world. Man brought evil into this world but God allowed it to happen.”
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/6/2008 11:06:26 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I’m saying that man was the catalyst that allowed sin to enter this world…man chose sin over God.
I said “Man chose to exercise his authority without God and man was lost to sin…evil came into the world. Man brought evil into this world but God allowed it to happen.”
Bob
I am not disagreeing that because of mans choice, sin entered into the world. But, wasn't mans choice to believe a lie, a lie that originated with Satan?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 12:41:17 AM
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bob97
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That is what the bible tells us. Satan played on Eves greed. telling her that she would be like God and she took the bait.
What is there about man that makes them want to do it their way rather than God's? That's the sinfulness of man today...wanting to do without God.
So we can agree that temptation got the better of Eve but she still make the decision...she started the ball rolling.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 9:23:31 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
That is what the bible tells us. Satan played on Eves greed. telling her that she would be like God and she took the bait.
What is there about man that makes them want to do it their way rather than God's? That's the sinfulness of man today...wanting to do without God.
So we can agree that temptation got the better of Eve but she still make the decision...she started the ball rolling.
Bob
Yes, but the thread is about the root of evil.
There was no greed in Eve for Satan to play on...yet. Satan deceived Eve, causing her to doubt God. It was that doubt that ultimately brought evil into the world.
Man chose evil, but Satan is the originator of that evil, the Father of all lies. Man chose to believe the lie that Satan tempted him with.
We could literally debate how it is that Satan became the Evil One, till hell freezes over, and beyond. But, one thing we know for sure is that Satan is the cause of all human evil.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 11:04:18 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
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quote:
Satan is the originator of that evil
One could make the argument God not Satan is the originator of evil. Did not God create Satan? Does not God see the end from the beginning?
How can God create one thing without the opposing counterpart? If you have light you must have dark to balance it. If you didn't have dark, light would just be a state of being. If you didn't have evil then good would just be the natural order.
The natural order of the universe is positive and negative. One attracts and the other repels. Without these two forces the universe would cease to be.
Even during the coming age of a new heaven and earth, evil is not destroyed, it is only contained.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 11:06:59 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iampiper13
What do you consider the root of all evil?
The love of "anything" more than God (idolatry)
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 11:22:15 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Satan is the originator of that evil
One could make the argument God not Satan is the originator of evil. Did not God create Satan? Does not God see the end from the beginning?
How can God create one thing without the opposing counterpart? If you have light you must have dark to balance it. If you didn't have dark, light would just be a state of being. If you didn't have evil then good would just be the natural order.
The natural order of the universe is positive and negative. One attracts and the other repels. Without these two forces the universe would cease to be.
Even during the coming age of a new heaven and earth, evil is not destroyed, it is only contained.
Bob
As I said, we could debate theodicy until hell freezes over. No man has ever been able to satisfactorily explain how Satan became evil. The point is that Satan is the cause of all human evil.
I would suggest that what we now think of as the natural order of the universe, is in fact unnatural, as all of creation is under the curse of sin.
Peace, my friend
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 9:17:28 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3393
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Could satan have decieved Eve without Eve having free will?
...and placing all the blame on satan is..irresponsible.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/7/2008 11:27:30 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1129
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Could satan have decieved Eve without Eve having free will?
...and placing all the blame on satan is..irresponsible.
We are given free will by God. Are you saying that God made us evil by giving us free will?
The blame for evil must lie with Satan, he is the Evil One. The blame for mans choice, lies with man.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/8/2008 7:53:59 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3393
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Obviously God gave us free will.
Without Him, our free will choices are evil. Was God around when Eve disobeyed? Was Eve HS indwellt? It would seem not. Even if she was indwellt, she could still make a free will choice...to sin.
If we had no free will, we could not sin.
If we could choose God and choose good on our own without God's help...would we need God?
All good comes from God. We..are not God. So good does not come from us. Obviously we can sin. Even Holy Spirit indwellt people sin. So, logically, free will is our ability to sin.
Without free will, no sin. With free will, we must rely on God to guide us to be like His Son. We still mess up, even with God in us because we...CAN....with free will.
Now, free will has great value even thoug it is only the ability to sin because with God's help, we can deny our free will and submit to God. That...is why we have free will...to make the submission to God valuable.
Without free will, our ability to sin, our relationship with God would be as...robot....not human.
So yes, without a doubt, free will does bring evil. As I said, without free will we would all obey God all the time.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/8/2008 9:42:01 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1129
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Obviously God gave us free will.
Without Him, our free will choices are evil. Was God around when Eve disobeyed? Was Eve HS indwellt? It would seem not. Even if she was indwellt, she could still make a free will choice...to sin.
If we had no free will, we could not sin.
If we could choose God and choose good on our own without God's help...would we need God?
All good comes from God. We..are not God. So good does not come from us. Obviously we can sin. Even Holy Spirit indwellt people sin. So, logically, free will is our ability to sin.
Without free will, no sin. With free will, we must rely on God to guide us to be like His Son. We still mess up, even with God in us because we...CAN....with free will.
Now, free will has great value even thoug it is only the ability to sin because with God's help, we can deny our free will and submit to God. That...is why we have free will...to make the submission to God valuable.
Without free will, our ability to sin, our relationship with God would be as...robot....not human.
So yes, without a doubt, free will does bring evil. As I said, without free will we would all obey God all the time.
Free will gives us the ability to choose. If evil had not already existed, there would not have been evil for Adam and Eve to choose. The evil is not our free will, evil is that which we use our free will to choose or not choose. No evil, no evil to choose.
Eve was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Really?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/8/2008 11:23:02 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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It seems to me that evil has always been the other side of the coin...it has always been an option and it was created by God. This was the option that Satan chose...not to follow God but to follow himself.
Satan didn't just always exist...God created him and he was perfect. Then Satan elected to go another way.
This all occurred on a spiritual level. Then God created life on this world and it was perfect but man made the decision to make it something else.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/8/2008 9:08:01 PM
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prolifepj
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the love of anything more than God.
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Sho nuff honey chile - Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to! Laissez le bon rouleau de temps!
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RE: Root of all evil? - 10/9/2008 7:43:06 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3393
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
Eve was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Really?
I do not know but I don't think anyone was indwellt by the HS until Jesus came and left....??
As far as evil existing before Eve sinned, I would say evil did not exist until the act was done. Its not like evil was floating around and bopped Eve over the head. Evil was the action taken. Before the action, there was no evil. satan provided the deciet. Eve provided the sin.
If Eve did not have free will then sin could not have entered the world. She would have been incapable of sinning. The choice could not have been made without free will.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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