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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 12:59:01 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
He's there trying to balance the fact he claims Christ while on the other hand supporting that which clearly conflicts with Christ and His word... Of course the bible is clear we cannot be double minded... It's clear God if first, being that He is jealous and doesn't like to share... A house divided will fall...
well then, why are people acting as if he IS a christian and wondering 'how can he say such a thang?"
he clearly has pointed out his liberal beliefs.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:03:29 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Obama believes in abortion, gay rights, and he has said so. Thats what i listen to... what he says. I dont try to say "how can he be a christian and say those things?"
I am not saying that Obama is not a christian based on those two issues. I am saying it based on Black Liberation Theology and what that theology says about who Jesus Christ is, what salvation means and what sin is and is not. I am looking at what he has rasied his children to believe about Jesus Christ.
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there are those other characters that he has hung around with, that is up for interpretation too.. some poeple feel those ACORN, Ayers, jeremiah wright, etc. have some significance, and others feel they are no significance. What do you think? guilt by association? red flags? or is he able to rise above those characters influence in his life.. That is my current question!
Birds of a feather flock together. I have been involved in local politics long enough to know that every association a person with political ambitions has are for reasons. They are very careful concerning who they associate and align themselves with. It's not something they have not considered long and hard about. For a person with political ambitons they guard their words, actions and associations inorder to benefit them in the future.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:12:07 PM
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P31W
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Just so we all understand a little bit more about Obama's religious believes let's examine some of the founder's quotes concerning Jesus Christ and today.
"We cannot solve ethical questions of the twentieth century by looking at what Jesus did in the first. Our choices are not the same as his. Being Christians does not mean following 'in his steps.'" [Black Theology and Black Power, Page 139]
"Therefore, simply to say that Jesus did not use violence is no evidence relevant to the condition of black people as they decide on what to do about white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, Page 140]
Realize how Obama's religious teachers view the actions and teachings of Jesus as something we don't have to follow today. His religion does allow violence.
Realize that the black people as a "community" are to decide how they are to act in this era of time....not follow the foot steps of Jesus. For Obama being a Christian does not mean following Jesus footsteps or example or teachings.
Do you see that it's Obama's theology that will allow him to have people call him Messiah and allow him to mock and ignore the scripture?
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:12:48 PM
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adelphi_sky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Obama is of the black liberation theology... i heard jeremiah wright, and senator meeks, and anyone else from operation push, its all black liberation theology. it sounds christian, but its not, just coz its from an alleged christian church. (jeremiah wrights chruch is church of christ, if im not mistaken). they are not orthodox christianity due to several hersies, i.e. baptism to be saved, etc.
I've read up on Black Liberation Theology. I would argue that it is an interpretation of scripture that believes God favors the oppressed. Their reasoning is lifted from how God delivered His oppressed people in the Old and New Testaments. It is a view that Christ came as a liberator to free all God's children from oppression. It certainly isn't a mainstream interpretation, but I don't find it bordering on the occult. Surely other Christians believe Christ came to liberate us from sin and to free us from plans of the enemy. Looking through the lens of someone who grew up oppressed, I can see how one could see Christ as a liberator and a champion of freedom and equality for all. After all, Christ is just. It is certainly understandable how that interpretation can turn into a liberation theology. I don't think it takes away from who Christ is or even what Christ represents. I think the hate issue arose when people saw the few sound bites of an angry and impatient Jeremiah Wright. Of course one could believe that he was an angry hateful man. But as far as the theology goes, it's not hate-filled at all.
There is one tenant that says one should strive for equality for the oppressed and question those practices that seem to be biased towards certain people. That's been the civil rights struggle all along from the MLK era. Which one could argue that MLK himself preached a form of liberation theology himself. He acted to correct the wrongs of society where injustice was the norm. MLK didn't preach hate. He preached freedom from oppression and equality for all people. To say that Obama somehow believes in some radical anti-christian theology that is so far removed from Christian principles is clearly incorrect.
Here is one thought though. Would coming from a liberation background be so bad? Could not liberation be applied to liberating us from dependence on foreign oil, a bad economy, threats of terrorism, homelessness, and poverty? Why have we only searched for the negative on this issue.
I enjoy apologetics and I am a very strong supporter of separating the truth from falsehoods. I just find it hard to separate liberation theology from how Christ came to liberate us as Christians from sin and death. The only thing I can find that would be an offense to others is the focus on African-American liberation. Even then, there is a reason. That reason could be being shell-shocked from 400 years of oppression. Should all churches teach this theology. No. But for those who do, it's not too far from the truth. Therefore, I think no one can say definitively whether or not these people are Christians. The same goes for Obama.
lastly, we all know that there are different denominations and cultures in Christianity. One denomination says the other is a heresy and vice versa. As long as the core Christian beliefs are agreed upon, the fringe issues are up for debate.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:15:15 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Of course one could believe that he was an angry hateful man. But as far as the theology goes, it's not hate-filled at all
You have got to be kidding. They adovcate violence when they (the black community) decided it's needed against the white church.
"Whether the American system is beyond redemption we will have to wait and see. But we can be certain that black patience has run out, and unless white America responds positively to the theory and activity of Black Power, then a bloody, protracted civil war is inevitable." [Black Theology and Black Power, Page 143]
In case some of you don't know. BTand BP is the book James Cones wrote. This is the man who is considered the modernday founder of BLT and who Obama's church is patterened it's theology after. Cones praises Wright for teaching his theology so well in his church.
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As long as the core Christian beliefs are agreed upon, the fringe issues are up for debate.
The core beliefs are NOT agreeded upon. If you did any indept research you should know that by now.
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One denomination says the other is a heresy and vice versa.
Denominations within the Christain faith look at other denomination's core theology. We don't just call another denomination false because we disagree over some of the "non-essentials" of the faith.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:20:42 PM
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adelphi_sky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Just so we all understand a little bit more about Obama's religious believes let's examine some of the founder's quotes concerning Jesus Christ and today.
"We cannot solve ethical questions of the twentieth century by looking at what Jesus did in the first. Our choices are not the same as his. Being Christians does not mean following 'in his steps.'" [Black Theology and Black Power, Page 139]
"Therefore, simply to say that Jesus did not use violence is no evidence relevant to the condition of black people as they decide on what to do about white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, Page 140]
Realize how Obama's religious teachers view the actions and teachings of Jesus as something we don't have to follow today. His religion does allow violence.
Realize that the black people as a "community" are to decide how they are to act in this era of time....not follow the foot steps of Jesus. For Obama being a Christian does not mean following Jesus footsteps or example or teachings.
Do you see that it's Obama's theology that will allow him to have people call him Messiah and allow him to mock and ignore the scripture?
This will be my last post on this subject. The views of one man aren't necessarily the views of another. I don't agree with everything my pastor says and can find differences in how I would raise my children and how he raises his, etc. There are some leaders who are Catholic (Kennedy), and others who are Mormon (Romney). There are some who are Baptist (Carter), and some who are Methodist. They All hold different traditions and beliefs. Some think Catholics are not true Christians, others believe Mormons are not true Christians and for good reasons. There were be questions regarding anyone's faith because this is a country with freedom to worship in our own ways according to our own beliefs. I'm not validating the denominations or religions I just listed. I'm just bringing up the fact that it is impossible for us to agree 100% on everything, wright or wrong, concerning religion. I was even discouraged to learn just how divided the Christian faith is on certain issues. And we'll never know who is correct until Christ returns. That we can all agree on. Therefore, I'm persuaded to look at our differences within the realm of Christianity with an objective eye.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:22:26 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Here is one thought though. Would coming from a liberation background be so bad? Could not liberation be applied to liberating us from dependence on foreign oil, a bad economy, threats of terrorism, homelessness, and poverty? Why have we only searched for the negative on this issue.
Why not ask God if he sent his Son to die on the cross so that we Americans or whoever could be liberated from the dependance on foreign oil or financial poverty?
You are talking about the "nature of God" and the "nature of man". Your view of God is too low and your view of man is too high.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:29:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
well then, why are people acting as if he IS a christian and wondering 'how can he say such a thang?"
I have no idea... I know people who believe the same as he does act like he's a Christian...
quote:
he clearly has pointed out his liberal beliefs.
He has clearly pointed out his agenda conflicts with the word of God.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:34:30 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1663
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
well then, why are people acting as if he IS a christian and wondering 'how can he say such a thang?"
I have no idea... I know people who believe the same as he does act like he's a Christian...
quote:
he clearly has pointed out his liberal beliefs.
He has clearly pointed out his agenda conflicts with the word of God.
true!! I FINALLY AGREE WITH YA!
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:34:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Obama is of the black liberation theology... i heard jeremiah wright, and senator meeks, and anyone else from operation push, its all black liberation theology. it sounds christian, but its not, just coz its from an alleged christian church. (jeremiah wrights chruch is church of christ, if im not mistaken). they are not orthodox christianity due to several hersies, i.e. baptism to be saved, etc.
I've read up on Black Liberation Theology. I would argue that it is an interpretation of scripture that believes God favors the oppressed. Their reasoning is lifted from how God delivered His oppressed people in the Old and New Testaments. It is a view that Christ came as a liberator to free all God's children from oppression. It certainly isn't a mainstream interpretation, but I don't find it bordering on the occult. Surely other Christians believe Christ came to liberate us from sin and to free us from plans of the enemy. Looking through the lens of someone who grew up oppressed, I can see how one could see Christ as a liberator and a champion of freedom and equality for all. After all, Christ is just. It is certainly understandable how that interpretation can turn into a liberation theology. I don't think it takes away from who Christ is or even what Christ represents. I think the hate issue arose when people saw the few sound bites of an angry and impatient Jeremiah Wright. Of course one could believe that he was an angry hateful man. But as far as the theology goes, it's not hate-filled at all.
There is one tenant that says one should strive for equality for the oppressed and question those practices that seem to be biased towards certain people. That's been the civil rights struggle all along from the MLK era. Which one could argue that MLK himself preached a form of liberation theology himself. He acted to correct the wrongs of society where injustice was the norm. MLK didn't preach hate. He preached freedom from oppression and equality for all people. To say that Obama somehow believes in some radical anti-christian theology that is so far removed from Christian principles is clearly incorrect.
Here is one thought though. Would coming from a liberation background be so bad? Could not liberation be applied to liberating us from dependence on foreign oil, a bad economy, threats of terrorism, homelessness, and poverty? Why have we only searched for the negative on this issue.
I enjoy apologetics and I am a very strong supporter of separating the truth from falsehoods. I just find it hard to separate liberation theology from how Christ came to liberate us as Christians from sin and death. The only thing I can find that would be an offense to others is the focus on African-American liberation. Even then, there is a reason. That reason could be being shell-shocked from 400 years of oppression. Should all churches teach this theology. No. But for those who do, it's not too far from the truth. Therefore, I think no one can say definitively whether or not these people are Christians. The same goes for Obama.
lastly, we all know that there are different denominations and cultures in Christianity. One denomination says the other is a heresy and vice versa. As long as the core Christian beliefs are agreed upon, the fringe issues are up for debate.
Interesting... Safe to assume you believe Obama left a perfectly God centered church simply because it was seen as dragging down his bid for political office?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:38:11 PM
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P31W
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Black liberation theology has its origins in the Black Power movement of the 1960s. Its founder, James Cone, was looking for a theological orientation to explain the aims, ethos, and anger of the 1960s revolution. So, not surprisingly, black liberation theology concerns itself with the political aspirations of African Americans from a fairly radical bent by most standards. It's an effort to do theology from the vantage point of the marginalized and the oppressed. Its main benefit is that it does raise questions that aren't often addressed by most theologians. Its main failure is that it either supplants or equates the biblical gospel with a concern for temporal politics, particularly politics viewed from a politically liberal and self-consciously black perspective.
Above is a quote from Collin Hansen in a Christanity Today interview concerning BLT. Note especially his last sentence. In scripture God calls this "another gospel"..... one we are to stand strong against and flee from. It's much like what the Judiazers did in Pauls' time to the gospel message. It perverts God's grace and brings God down and elevates man. It's something Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to crush.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:41:56 PM
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P31W
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quote:
There is one tenant that says one should strive for equality for the oppressed and question those practices that seem to be biased towards certain people. That's been the civil rights struggle all along from the MLK era. Which one could argue that MLK himself preached a form of liberation theology himself. He acted to correct the wrongs of society where injustice was the norm. MLK didn't preach hate. He preached freedom from oppression and equality for all people. To say that Obama somehow believes in some radical anti-christian theology that is so far removed from Christian principles is clearly incorrect.
MLK was not in any ways shape or form associated with BLT. MLK taught we are NOT to judge a man by the color of his skin.
BLT teaches that a man's skin color makes him more or less of a sinner. The white man has more to repent of than a black man. BLT teaches that ALL whites are racist and ALL blacks hate whites but the black man's hate toward whites is not racist.
BLT is very much concerned with "skin color".
BLT teaches that only the blacks are oppressed and that is the reason they ONLY pledge to support and build up legislation that builds up the black community, the black family and the black businesses.
In BLT the oppressed equals black. So when you read that term in their teachings don't think they are talking about "all" oppressed people. Only the black ones. In their teachings "all" whites are the oppressors even if they are poor.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:42:39 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1663
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Black liberation theology has its origins in the Black Power movement of the 1960s. Its founder, James Cone, was looking for a theological orientation to explain the aims, ethos, and anger of the 1960s revolution. So, not surprisingly, black liberation theology concerns itself with the political aspirations of African Americans from a fairly radical bent by most standards. It's an effort to do theology from the vantage point of the marginalized and the oppressed. Its main benefit is that it does raise questions that aren't often addressed by most theologians. Its main failure is that it either supplants or equates the biblical gospel with a concern for temporal politics, particularly politics viewed from a politically liberal and self-consciously black perspective.
Above is a quote from Collin Hansen in a Christanity Today interview concerning BLT. Note especially his last sentence. In scripture God calls this "another gospel"..... one we are to stand strong against and flee from. It's much like what the Judiazers did in Pauls' time to the gospel message. It perverts God's grace and brings God down and elevates man. It's something Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to crush.
I can beleive that. however to a black person, they dont see it the same way as a non-black person. I sat in Senator James Meeks church IN PERSON and I heard a sermon with that but i didn't realize what it was. the people in the church were clappin and shouting hallelujah.. because to their ears it meant freedom from their oppression from history. meanwhile, some white folks walked out because they were insulted. I was there and heard it with my very own ears and saw the people's reactions. And his church is considered a Pentecostal church.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 1:47:21 PM
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P31W
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To some black people. Just as to some people hearing the name it and claim it garbage sounds good.
it's what is in our hearts that helps us find God or a false religion/gospel message. If we seek Him with all our heart he will help us see the false stuff and draw us closer to Him.
Of course God already told us to expect this.
2Ti 4:
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Either our desire is to know God or it's not.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 2:32:04 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 409
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Black liberation theology has its origins in the Black Power movement of the 1960s. Its founder, James Cone, was looking for a theological orientation to explain the aims, ethos, and anger of the 1960s revolution. So, not surprisingly, black liberation theology concerns itself with the political aspirations of African Americans from a fairly radical bent by most standards. It's an effort to do theology from the vantage point of the marginalized and the oppressed. Its main benefit is that it does raise questions that aren't often addressed by most theologians. Its main failure is that it either supplants or equates the biblical gospel with a concern for temporal politics, particularly politics viewed from a politically liberal and self-consciously black perspective.
Above is a quote from Collin Hansen in a Christanity Today interview concerning BLT. Note especially his last sentence. In scripture God calls this "another gospel"..... one we are to stand strong against and flee from. It's much like what the Judiazers did in Pauls' time to the gospel message. It perverts God's grace and brings God down and elevates man. It's something Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to crush.
I can beleive that. however to a black person, they dont see it the same way as a non-black person. I sat in Senator James Meeks church IN PERSON and I heard a sermon with that but i didn't realize what it was. the people in the church were clappin and shouting hallelujah.. because to their ears it meant freedom from their oppression from history. meanwhile, some white folks walked out because they were insulted. I was there and heard it with my very own ears and saw the people's reactions. And his church is considered a Pentecostal church.
I find it interesting that there are different definitions of this theology. I've read more than one definition and the core of it relates to God giving favor to and coming for the liberation of the oppressed. You definition is the first one that mentions politics.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 2:39:16 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 409
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Black liberation theology has its origins in the Black Power movement of the 1960s. Its founder, James Cone, was looking for a theological orientation to explain the aims, ethos, and anger of the 1960s revolution. So, not surprisingly, black liberation theology concerns itself with the political aspirations of African Americans from a fairly radical bent by most standards. It's an effort to do theology from the vantage point of the marginalized and the oppressed. Its main benefit is that it does raise questions that aren't often addressed by most theologians. Its main failure is that it either supplants or equates the biblical gospel with a concern for temporal politics, particularly politics viewed from a politically liberal and self-consciously black perspective.
Above is a quote from Collin Hansen in a Christanity Today interview concerning BLT. Note especially his last sentence. In scripture God calls this "another gospel"..... one we are to stand strong against and flee from. It's much like what the Judiazers did in Pauls' time to the gospel message. It perverts God's grace and brings God down and elevates man. It's something Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to crush.
I can beleive that. however to a black person, they dont see it the same way as a non-black person. I sat in Senator James Meeks church IN PERSON and I heard a sermon with that but i didn't realize what it was. the people in the church were clappin and shouting hallelujah.. because to their ears it meant freedom from their oppression from history. meanwhile, some white folks walked out because they were insulted. I was there and heard it with my very own ears and saw the people's reactions. And his church is considered a Pentecostal church.
I agree that you were offended. Anything that focuses on one race can seem offensive to someone not in that race. What I'm saying is the core belief of liberation theology is not that far from mainstream Christian theology; that it is far from a cult. Christ did come as a liberator and savior. Now, for those that want to believe that He only came for certain races, there's room for argument there. And if it is so strong as to alienate other races, well, then there's something wrong with that. The point is, I would believe that the church as a whole including Obama, does not hold the more radical views of the founding fathers of Black Liberation Theology. If that's the case, I'd imagine Barack would b anti-government pro-black panther/NOI. What marches has Obama organized? What protests did he organize? Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would seem more in your face about civil-rights of African Americans than Obama would. I know that's hard to believe from what you've heard preached at the church, but that hasn't been evident. Which leads me to believe that Obama is not as radical as you may think.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 2:47:40 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 409
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Obama is of the black liberation theology... i heard jeremiah wright, and senator meeks, and anyone else from operation push, its all black liberation theology. it sounds christian, but its not, just coz its from an alleged christian church. (jeremiah wrights chruch is church of christ, if im not mistaken). they are not orthodox christianity due to several hersies, i.e. baptism to be saved, etc.
I've read up on Black Liberation Theology. I would argue that it is an interpretation of scripture that believes God favors the oppressed. Their reasoning is lifted from how God delivered His oppressed people in the Old and New Testaments. It is a view that Christ came as a liberator to free all God's children from oppression. It certainly isn't a mainstream interpretation, but I don't find it bordering on the occult. Surely other Christians believe Christ came to liberate us from sin and to free us from plans of the enemy. Looking through the lens of someone who grew up oppressed, I can see how one could see Christ as a liberator and a champion of freedom and equality for all. After all, Christ is just. It is certainly understandable how that interpretation can turn into a liberation theology. I don't think it takes away from who Christ is or even what Christ represents. I think the hate issue arose when people saw the few sound bites of an angry and impatient Jeremiah Wright. Of course one could believe that he was an angry hateful man. But as far as the theology goes, it's not hate-filled at all.
There is one tenant that says one should strive for equality for the oppressed and question those practices that seem to be biased towards certain people. That's been the civil rights struggle all along from the MLK era. Which one could argue that MLK himself preached a form of liberation theology himself. He acted to correct the wrongs of society where injustice was the norm. MLK didn't preach hate. He preached freedom from oppression and equality for all people. To say that Obama somehow believes in some radical anti-christian theology that is so far removed from Christian principles is clearly incorrect.
Here is one thought though. Would coming from a liberation background be so bad? Could not liberation be applied to liberating us from dependence on foreign oil, a bad economy, threats of terrorism, homelessness, and poverty? Why have we only searched for the negative on this issue.
I enjoy apologetics and I am a very strong supporter of separating the truth from falsehoods. I just find it hard to separate liberation theology from how Christ came to liberate us as Christians from sin and death. The only thing I can find that would be an offense to others is the focus on African-American liberation. Even then, there is a reason. That reason could be being shell-shocked from 400 years of oppression. Should all churches teach this theology. No. But for those who do, it's not too far from the truth. Therefore, I think no one can say definitively whether or not these people are Christians. The same goes for Obama.
lastly, we all know that there are different denominations and cultures in Christianity. One denomination says the other is a heresy and vice versa. As long as the core Christian beliefs are agreed upon, the fringe issues are up for debate.
Interesting... Safe to assume you believe Obama left a perfectly God centered church simply because it was seen as dragging down his bid for political office?
Define perfectly God-centered. He left way before it seemed to drag down his bid for office. Who called it a perfect God-centered church? PEople leave churches for many reasons. Especially if you disagree with the leadership. OR, ir the leader offended you or your family in some way and was unrepentant, I don't think anyone would stay at a church like that. I'm leaving my church of 12 years. Not for personal gain. The new church is too far and it has grown way too large for me. People can say I'm wrong for that but it's my own personal choice. If after 20 years Obama feels that his church no longer serves the needs of him or his family, whether it be for his JOB or personal reasons, he's more than welcome to. That's the freedom we have in this country, we are free to worship wherever we choose. We don't have to remain loyal to one building or pastor. I'm moving from a Baptist church to a non-denominational church. No love lost. The old church doesn't fit my needs any longer. Thank God we live in a country where we can find a church in every city.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 3:06:53 PM
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devere
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In all this discussion of Black Liberation theology, there is not a monolithic black liberation theology but a much more communal attitude among black evangelicals which is a hermeneutic posture rather than an actual theology. Violence has been present in many pioneering groups of faith including ours and in general Obama is one of us.
1) Blacks are not a monolith. In my Pentecostal church, there are over 100 nations represented. But when it comes to the black members, some come from families who arrived in North America as early as the 1650's while others are first generation from a wide variety of African tribes. I am closest to the Yoruba group from Nigeria as my white SIM MK father was a Nigerian citizen when I was born in North America. Obama's background is closer to the latter group - and at one time, Obama had to win the longstanding American blacks to show that he was one of them.
2) When Hillary Clinton said that it takes a village to raise a child, many of my black friends couldn't comprehend why this upset the white folks. This was precisely how their Christian community viewed and protected their youth. Their experience of incarnation is a corporate one rather than the rugged individualist of our North American white culture. However, it isn't really far from the early pilgrim theology in parts of New England. It becomes very easy for them to identify in a hermeneutic way with the people Israel, feeling nomadic, uprooted and looking for someone who "could let my people go." Frankly, I am thankful that they can fully embrace theses thoughts, emotions, and spiritual drive from the Word of God in ways that many of us would take for granted. And the hymns that have emerged from this experience are those which remind us that heaven is a transformational one into the presence of God is transformational rather than some some no-no-no evolutionary Nirvana (one of our weaknesses).
3) Jeremiah Wright reflects the excesses of many pioneer types. We pillory him and other black liberation theologians because of their allowance for violence. But let's look at our own history before we cast stones on it. I don't really think I have to say more without hurting a few feelings.
4) In the Saddleback forum, Obama did not overall do as well as McCain. But he won two important points which showed that he was "one of us". The first was that his understanding of evil was Biblical and dealt with its full complexity, while McCain's was purely cultural (defeat it). The second was his conclusion that the hardest but most important message that he could provide was the essential nature of sacrifice as a reflection of his faith. In this way he was saying that the stubborn sliver laden wood of the cross is more powerful than the hard cold steel of a AK47.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 3:57:18 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6088
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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devere,
It is downright dishonest to want and excuse the racism and hate of "Rev" Wright with what others have done in the past.
No good.
Does not work when you failed to consider not all of us (Americans and on this board) are white or black.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 4:37:52 PM
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devere
Posts: 14
Joined: 10/13/2008
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earthless
Thanks for the response
If you read point 4 as a stark contrast to point 3, I think you will see, Glory to God, that you, Obama and I agree on the issue.
Thanks again
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 4:40:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Obama is of the black liberation theology... i heard jeremiah wright, and senator meeks, and anyone else from operation push, its all black liberation theology. it sounds christian, but its not, just coz its from an alleged christian church. (jeremiah wrights chruch is church of christ, if im not mistaken). they are not orthodox christianity due to several hersies, i.e. baptism to be saved, etc.
I've read up on Black Liberation Theology. I would argue that it is an interpretation of scripture that believes God favors the oppressed. Their reasoning is lifted from how God delivered His oppressed people in the Old and New Testaments. It is a view that Christ came as a liberator to free all God's children from oppression. It certainly isn't a mainstream interpretation, but I don't find it bordering on the occult. Surely other Christians believe Christ came to liberate us from sin and to free us from plans of the enemy. Looking through the lens of someone who grew up oppressed, I can see how one could see Christ as a liberator and a champion of freedom and equality for all. After all, Christ is just. It is certainly understandable how that interpretation can turn into a liberation theology. I don't think it takes away from who Christ is or even what Christ represents. I think the hate issue arose when people saw the few sound bites of an angry and impatient Jeremiah Wright. Of course one could believe that he was an angry hateful man. But as far as the theology goes, it's not hate-filled at all.
There is one tenant that says one should strive for equality for the oppressed and question those practices that seem to be biased towards certain people. That's been the civil rights struggle all along from the MLK era. Which one could argue that MLK himself preached a form of liberation theology himself. He acted to correct the wrongs of society where injustice was the norm. MLK didn't preach hate. He preached freedom from oppression and equality for all people. To say that Obama somehow believes in some radical anti-christian theology that is so far removed from Christian principles is clearly incorrect.
Here is one thought though. Would coming from a liberation background be so bad? Could not liberation be applied to liberating us from dependence on foreign oil, a bad economy, threats of terrorism, homelessness, and poverty? Why have we only searched for the negative on this issue.
I enjoy apologetics and I am a very strong supporter of separating the truth from falsehoods. I just find it hard to separate liberation theology from how Christ came to liberate us as Christians from sin and death. The only thing I can find that would be an offense to others is the focus on African-American liberation. Even then, there is a reason. That reason could be being shell-shocked from 400 years of oppression. Should all churches teach this theology. No. But for those who do, it's not too far from the truth. Therefore, I think no one can say definitively whether or not these people are Christians. The same goes for Obama.
lastly, we all know that there are different denominations and cultures in Christianity. One denomination says the other is a heresy and vice versa. As long as the core Christian beliefs are agreed upon, the fringe issues are up for debate.
Interesting... Safe to assume you believe Obama left a perfectly God centered church simply because it was seen as dragging down his bid for political office?
Define perfectly God-centered. He left way before it seemed to drag down his bid for office. Who called it a perfect God-centered church? PEople leave churches for many reasons. Especially if you disagree with the leadership. OR, ir the leader offended you or your family in some way and was unrepentant, I don't think anyone would stay at a church like that. I'm leaving my church of 12 years. Not for personal gain. The new church is too far and it has grown way too large for me. People can say I'm wrong for that but it's my own personal choice. If after 20 years Obama feels that his church no longer serves the needs of him or his family, whether it be for his JOB or personal reasons, he's more than welcome to. That's the freedom we have in this country, we are free to worship wherever we choose. We don't have to remain loyal to one building or pastor. I'm moving from a Baptist church to a non-denominational church. No love lost. The old church doesn't fit my needs any longer. Thank God we live in a country where we can find a church in every city.
Without a doubt he has the freedom to change churches... Never an issue, but anyone with a clear mind knows he left because the truth of the church he attended was brought to light...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/13/2008 7:03:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6088
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: devere
earthless
Thanks for the response
If you read point 4 as a stark contrast to point 3, I think you will see, Glory to God, that you, Obama and I agree on the issue.
Thanks again
None of that detracts from the points I have presented in the early pages of this thread. All items which have yet to be fully answered by any self-professing Christian.
Don't worry, it is not possible when we consider the church foundation that Obama was steeped in for over 20 years.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/14/2008 9:58:01 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
I find it interesting that there are different definitions of this theology. I've read more than one definition and the core of it relates to God giving favor to and coming for the liberation of the oppressed. You definition is the first one that mentions politics.
Obama's church teaches "Black Liberation Theology" as defined by James Cones. If you had studied it you would know the modern day founder is James Cones. His book "Black Theology and BLACK POWER" is their foundational book for their beliefs system. From DAY ONE of Cones writtings he has been political. (political anger is what drove him to create this new theology)
I guess "Black Power" is a foreign term to you or for you it carries no political meaning.
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Just looking at the theology known as "liberation theology" I will offer up winkpedia's simple defination.
Liberation theology is a school of theology within Christianity, particularly in the Roman Catholic Church. It emphasizes the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism
< Message edited by P31W -- 10/14/2008 10:04:17 AM >
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RE: :: 0bama Mocking the Bible? - 10/14/2008 10:14:09 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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Black Liberation Theology, originally intended to help the black community, may have actually hurt many blacks by promoting racial tension, victimology, and Marxism which ultimately leads to more oppression. As the failed "War on Poverty" has exposed, the best way to keep the blacks perpetually enslaved to government as "daddy" is to preach victimology, Marxism, and to seduce blacks into thinking that upward mobility is someone else's responsibility in a free society.
quote from;
Anthony B. Bradley is a research fellow at the Acton Institute, and assistant professor of theology at Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis. His Ph.D. d | | |
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