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[Poll]
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Do you think another Civil War inevitable?
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| No, never |
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| Yes, but many generations down the road |
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| Yes within a couple of generations |
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| Yes, soon |
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Total Votes : 52
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(last vote on : 10/24/2008 5:31:42 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/13/2008 12:29:45 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Ironically, tracy appears to have deleted the truly offensive post... *shrug* So, no real point discussing it I guess.
Leon: I'm trying to run through scenarios of how that would happen. I don't mean just the occasional riot in some random city, we all know that happens, but a true civil war, where the entire country is in flames. I simply can't come up with anything that would be severe enough to cause that. We've been in horrible economic times before, but even in the Great Depression there wasn't a civil war, so that would seem an unlikely trigger. Short of terrorist attacks taking out our entire government and most large metropolises (metropoli?) I just don't see how our society could devolve into chaos that quickly. Even though people whine about the economy, most aren't "get in the streets and riot" kind of mad about it, we're mostly just trying to keep going through our daily lives and hold things together. I don't want to shoot at anyone, and I don't want anyone shooting at me, so why would I start something? Even though we *are* pretty well armed? (What can I say... we enjoy target shooting. *shrug*) Even if a terrorist attack were to take out a large portion of our country, I think most of us would be just struggling so hard to survive and banding together in an effort to do so that we wouldn't have time to start an actual full-scale civil war.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/13/2008 5:45:04 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 331
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Zhi,
I must confess that my view of the very real possibility that America will one day face the nightmarish possibility of a civil war/ revolution is strictltly hypothetical but one can not totally ignore the possibility that it may happen. Even George Washington in his Farewell Address in 1796 spoke of how vulnerable this experiment of democracy really is.
Yes, our government has many safe guards and checks and balances to counteraact the natural inclinations of our human nature. However, it is also within human nature to find ways around all that, if not use it to one's advantage. From what I have seen and heard from politicisns, spin-masters, talking heads, and politicially minded individuals throughout the years it strikes me that our politicians are getting smarter at the game of politics and finding ways around those safe guards and making direct appeals to facets of our human nature that will cause us to accept and even welcome their domination of our lives. Those facets of our human nature that our government has been designed to protect us from.
I have done some reading about revolutions and civil upheaval. Though there are common elements there is no way of predicting what if anything will actually trigger such a thing, or what if anything will guarantee the success of such an action.
What got me started thinking about this was my grandfather's attitutde that because of the way America and our political system has eveolved over the years, especially since the 1900s all it will take is for us to elect someone to the presidentcy who, after being elected and secure that he not only has like minded people in position, but enough popular support to decide the time for talking and taking is over, and it is time for the president to have free hand to do what he was elected to do, and that which he was held responsible for.
Yes, the idea seems far fetched but I do not believe it is outside the realm of possibility.
If more Americans entertained the nightmarish possibility that lay ahead of us they may be more inclinded to exercise their right and responsibility to stay truely involved, informed and vote whenever they have the opportunity to do so. Citizen involvement in the process is about the only thing that keeps the nightmare from happening, aside from prayer asking God to bless us with wisdom and mercy as we vote.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 10/13/2008 5:51:26 PM >
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/14/2008 7:56:48 AM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
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Leon, you make sense but I don't think folks are paying attention.
The possibilities are very real.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/14/2008 8:24:10 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 979
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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Our American elections are such an anomoly on the world scale. Just look at Zimbabwe, Iraq, Afghanistan... the fact that we can have a legal system that upsets a large cross-section of the population without causing massive bloodshed is a testament to the rapidly erroding Christian principles that form the bedrock of our Nation. Think about it... every eight years or so the people who have been in power leave office and the power changes hands from one party to another, and it is mostly peaceful. That makes us stick out in the world political structure.
That being said, I don't think a civil war between the left and right is "inevitable", per se, but is quite possible. Not that I am that cynical about our nation's declining morality, but more because I am cynical about the fallenness of human beings.
What is inevitable, in my mind, is a dissolution of the UN followed by a bloody world war, culminating in the unification of the majority of the earth under a single banner. But then again, that is just me.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/14/2008 8:52:21 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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I think there's a simpler explanation...
We have the leisure time to whine about politics.
Our politicians aren't really that different. It's not like in some of the countries that you mention, where if the guy you don't like gets elected it could mean government-sponsored genocide of your entire family or starvation for your village. Sure, we fuss and fight over which candidate said what and what that means and whether or not that makes him a scumbag, but we know that the net effect, even if the guy we don't like gets elected, is going to not be all that drastic. It's certainly not worth leaving our comfortable, dry, warm homes with our full fridges and our televisions to go shoot people in the streets over.
Incidentally, people getting upset about politics is pretty common in general. Type "fist fight in parliament" on your fave search site and you'll get a whole bunch of results... from more than one relatively stable country (Taiwan, Tonga, Russia, Macedonia, Bolivia, even Mexico)... but none of those are in total civil war as far as I know. Our political rivalries are actually pretty tame, as the world stage goes.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/14/2008 10:12:17 PM
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jbow
Posts: 790
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From: Dixie
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Leon... you do indeed make much sense. You stated in an earlier post about the polarization in our society. That is exactly what led up to the war in 1861... the society was completely polarized. Armed conflict is a very real possibility. I think it would be more of a terrorist, small group thing though. There is not much chance of a true rebellion by honorable people. There is a much greater risk of voilence by people who think they are owed something just by virtue of their existance. They have been taught this by a government interested in buying votes. When that government can no longer deliver those people will blame the productive sector of society.
Sell your cloak and buy a sword... Jesus
It is one thing to suffer for the gospel, it is quite another to be a victim of crime.
Julien
Julien
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 2:53:50 AM
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47.samuel
Posts: 44
Joined: 9/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Every election becomes more contentious, the divide among the states more acrimonious, the urban/rural split more apparent. Is another civil war, between left and right inevitable? If so, when?
By international standards, the philosophical difference between Democrats and Republicans isn't that great - America has no true "left" political wing.
America has its fair share of problems - but given the political uncertainty after the 2000 presidential election, the fact that power was transferred in an orderly fashion from the the Clinton/Gore Democrats to the Bush/Cheney Republicans, without "blood in the streets," speaks volumes.
< Message edited by 47.samuel -- 10/15/2008 3:00:42 AM >
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 10:17:36 AM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 331
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 47.samuel
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Every election becomes more contentious, the divide among the states more acrimonious, the urban/rural split more apparent. Is another civil war, between left and right inevitable? If so, when?
By international standards, the philosophical difference between Democrats and Republicans isn't that great - America has no true "left" political wing.
America has its fair share of problems - but given the political uncertainty after the 2000 presidential election, the fact that power was transferred in an orderly fashion from the the Clinton/Gore Democrats to the Bush/Cheney Republicans, without "blood in the streets," speaks volumes.
I seem to be having some trouble with this notion that because, historically, we have had the ability to change the political direction of our government and country every four to eight years without "blood in the streets" "speaks volumes" and somehow gives us some kind of assurance that it is always going to be that way. If it says anything it says volumes about the power of those citizen who bother to vote.
Our form of government is not immune from falling apart, or being manipulated. As George Washington indicated in his Farewell Address, if anything, our form of government is the most fragile because it depends on the citizenry of the country, to not only resist facets of their human nature, but to see through the efforts of politicians and political parties (which are controlled by a relatively few people) to gain power and authority over the citizenry and silence it for their own aims.
The simple fact is that someday, somehow our system will fall apart, and someone, or some party will work its way into the domination of our government. Many may even welcome it simply because it is within our human nature to do so. The only thing that seems to preventing that from happening is the efforts of citizens who refuse to be silenced by political parties, and insist on being involved, and having a say in the process.
We only hasten that day by ignoring its possibility, by retreating from participantion in the process simply because we do not like the choices we have been given by a system that is already showing signs of breaking down, and being manipulated by people who wish to silence the citizenry.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 10/15/2008 10:28:10 AM >
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 10:45:53 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2491
Joined: 10/1/2007
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I don't think this country will fragment but if (a really, really big if) it ever did I can forsee the Northeast going one way, the middle states another, with California and Alaska going it on their own. If this happens soon the Governator might get his wish and become President! 
I think what amazing to me is the "state's rights" issue that keep popping up. The first Civil Way decided that problem but I guess there are still a lot of people generations later cannot wrap their heads around a strong, centralized federal government.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 10:50:59 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
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I dunno. Only 60% of people who are eligible to vote in general (as in, old enough, not felons, etc) turned out to bother voting in 2004 and that was a really heated election. 2006 it was only 40% (no Presidential ticket). 2000 it was 54%. See http://elections.gmu.edu/voter_turnout.htm for my source (I like his VEP calculations, they seem more accurate, and before you complain, VEP actually gives higher numbers because it discounts more ineligibles).
If almost half the people in this country aren't willing to get off their duffs to go down to a polling place and cast a vote, I really just don't see them getting off their duffs to get a civil war started. They simply don't care enough. They whine about it, but it's like whining about the weather or your health... it's a conversational topic. *shrug*
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 11:26:30 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2491
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I dunno. Only 60% of people who are eligible to vote in general (as in, old enough, not felons, etc) turned out to bother voting in 2004 and that was a really heated election. 2006 it was only 40% (no Presidential ticket). 2000 it was 54%. See http://elections.gmu.edu/voter_turnout.htm for my source (I like his VEP calculations, they seem more accurate, and before you complain, VEP actually gives higher numbers because it discounts more ineligibles).
If almost half the people in this country aren't willing to get off their duffs to go down to a polling place and cast a vote, I really just don't see them getting off their duffs to get a civil war started. They simply don't care enough. They whine about it, but it's like whining about the weather or your health... it's a conversational topic. *shrug*
I agree about the apathy in this country but sometimes the people that riot or are quick to resort to violence aren't the ones that typically vote either. Of course they are also not organized enough to start a rebellion of that magnitude either. That's why I think if there is a rebellion it'll be at the ballot box!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 1:11:43 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/21/2007
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I voted "yes,soon."
But mostly not just because of the divisons, tensions I see around..as because of the 2nd amendment militia and the guns issues etc how many (%) conservatives in reality of the USA population do think like and hold positions like those who are here posting in CW ?
So frustrating when I think I'm "getting it" I am not..LOL..!
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 1:33:07 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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You do realize that there's a big difference between having a gun, and having a gun because you want to go shoot people in the street with it, for any reason?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 1:53:19 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
You do realize that there's a big difference between having a gun, and having a gun because you want to go shoot people in the street with it, for any reason?
Sure I do Zhi, not wanting to shoot anyone, believe me I'm mostly pacifist..but what I'm talking here is about the gun thread in the elections fold and about the militia wording in the Constitution..I was learning there etc..and IF something happens here and dictatorship ideas rises etc the Constitution provisions give us freedom to take arms and fighting militia style etc
I may mixing things here reggarding conflict name as "Civil War, Revolution or other" but doesn't matter the name of it the People will fight and many are already armed, bullies, criminals and others, beware.
Don't forget I'm learning, it comes around frustrating to me because I dont have all the pieces but few informations here and there and etc
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 2:14:53 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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They're prepared to fight if the stakes are high enough I suppose.
Though that does bring up a good point. I think that an arbitrary decision by the government to try to take everyone's guns away would be one of the few things that might, in fact, create a citizen vs. government armed conflict.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/15/2008 3:09:56 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 616
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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I don't see us having a civil war as we think of it. I just don't think people are that passionate collectively for one to happen.
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 1:24:58 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1366
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, I don't think so. Even though a small majority of people have strong opinions about certain issues, most are busy watching the latest reality show and couldn't be troubled actually fight for a particular belief. I mean I think maybe a sixth of the country even watches debates. Only 64% even bothered to vote in '04, and that was highest in 40 years.
I tend to agree here. It's unfortunate that the American people are so indifferent about what happens and about what our government does or what laws and bills they pass or what the courts rule in various cases no matter how ridiculous the actions of our government. Most people don't bother to pay attention to anything that happens and they frankly don't seem to care either way. It's unfortunate and I think it's causing a lot of problems. I think that many of our nations ills are partly the fault of the American people. Our system was designed to allow people to participate in government; we can elect our officials, we can start and sign petitions, and we can protest many issues. Sure the system is not perfect (and no system is), but it's not like a dictatorship where no mechanisms exist by which we can influence it. There exists plenty of mechanisms that give us much control over our legislative bodies. But most people choose not to participate and they choose not to be informed about various issues or to the extent that they are informed, they don't seem to care (though, I would say that most of those reading these message boards probably do care because you probably wouldn't be bothered to read anything here if you didn't care).
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 10:41:27 AM
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revpuente
Posts: 1
Joined: 10/16/2008
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I don't think we can afford to have another civil war. Another civil war will deplet our nation of our most needed resource, our young men and women. Without them, our future would be obscure.
At this time and age we need to learn how to live with each other, even with our differences. We need to pay more attention to the things that unite us, and pay less attention to the ones that separate us.
From the beginning, America has been a country of different groups coming together, respecting one another.
Let's keep it that way. Because if we start fighting each other, the only winners will be those who hate us. There are people around the world waiting and watching for an opportunity to destroy this great country of ours. As soon as they see an opportunity to do it, they will jump on it. Do we want to give our enemies the opportunity to find us divided and weak. Never!
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 1:33:59 PM
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cherime
Posts: 3
Joined: 10/16/2008
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I seems to me that a few are living in a different universe and a whole nother world. Heating fuel is the highest it has ever been. People of all ages are living out of cars and we in the faith based non-profit world are working overtime supplying food and trying to help with shelter. People are very much in danger of starving and/or freezing to death. If that wasn't enough, the working poor are in danger from the health issues they cannot treat. My husband died because we could not afford health care and when the elective surgery became "life threatening" it did take his life.
IF the book of Acts was not socialism in the finest kingdom sense I do not know what it was. No matter what word you use for it, that is the real definition of socialism.
Historically the church has never really fully stepped up to the plate to take care of those less fortunate, after all, "the poor are always with us" and as on pastor said, "if you were right with God, this would not be happening to you". Bah, humbug.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 3:42:37 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 388
Joined: 10/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
Evangel70, where did this come from? This has nothing to do with the OP. Sounds like fodder for another thread.
If you read my ENTIRE post, you will see my answer the OP's question:
Question:
quote:
Every election becomes more contentious, the divide among the states more acrimonious, the urban/rural split more apparent. Is another civil war, between left and right inevitable?
Answer:
quote:
Another civil war, probably not. The division and contention is not so much between one state over another or even as acrimonious between urban and rural (except in isolated sections) but wars have been started over ideology. If the McCain campaign continues to incite fears that Obama is a terrorist of not a citizen or a not-so-veiled racial claim that he's a muslim, I would not be surprised if a war similar to what we experienced in the 60's is just around the corner.
I read the entire post. You answered the question in the first paragraph. The rest was nothing more than an attack on the candidate you least favor. You did exactly what you said you don't like about his campaign.
and failed to look at the negative campaigning of Obama, who's negative commercials filled with half truths and outright lies are on during every commercial break as he tries to brainwash folks like you to expect one thing, and when all is said and done all he will accomplish is to take more power out of the hands of the people for government usage. Have you even seen the proposals they are coming up with? After an Obama presidency, government will have more control, more power, and be taking more tax dollars than they ever have in history.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 4:44:55 PM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I don't think this country will fragment but if (a really, really big if) it ever did I can forsee the Northeast going one way, the middle states another, with California and Alaska going it on their own. If this happens soon the Governator might get his wish and become President!
I think what amazing to me is the "state's rights" issue that keep popping up. The first Civil Way decided that problem but I guess there are still a lot of people generations later cannot wrap their heads around a strong, centralized federal government.
Nope. I refuse to "wrap my head" around a strong centralized govt.. That is the main problem today. Look at the posts,the polls etc. People are fed up with a selfish,elitist,arrogant congress.
A lower opinion rating than el presidente himself.
Don't get me wrong. We the people of the respective states have allowed the federal beast to grow and grow.
We had better get control before it erupts into violence.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 4:53:28 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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Well, Sudden, I think you kind of have to understand that presidential election years are kind of like a hockey games for us. We get out our penants, our massive foam hands, our team jerseys, and paint our faces and stomachs, and then we yell and scream for probably about 8 months. Then the game is over November 4, we go home, put away our team paraphenalia, wash the paint off our faces, and get on with our lives. ;)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/16/2008 4:56:55 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 331
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sudden
Dear fellow posters:
I hope you don't mind the comments of an outsider. When I hear people in chat on this site discuss the issues of your country, particularily in reference to the up-coming election, it seems to me (and I maybe wrong here but this is how it looks to this outsider) that your country is deeply divided. - with one "side" having a great deal of difficulty even listening to what the other "side" is saying. Perhaps this take is wrong. Perhaps you are not all as angry as you seem with each other. 
I guess I am wondering if you have thought of seperating? With one part of your country becoming the Republic of Republicans and the Democrats of DemoLand or something like that? Have you ever thought of trying to negotiate an agreement, rather than having a war?
Yours for trying to understand,
Sudden
That is what is one of the things that is so fragile, special, and unique about America. We are about negotiating and agreement. We believe the power of government lies in the average citizen and that citizens will disaggree sometimes bitterly and even violently. However, citizens will primarily work together for the common good.
Our Constitution gives citizens the right to overthrow the government, but only as a last resort. Only when our political system of checks and balances falls apart and there is not hope for negotitaion and agreement for the common good, are the citizens of America permitted to take up arms and change the government, to restore the government to that which is described and outlined in our Constitution. (JMO)
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RE: Do you think another Civil War inevitable? - 10/17/2008 3:12:34 AM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: sudden
Dear fellow posters:
I hope you don't mind the comments of an outsider. When I hear people in chat on this site discuss the issues of your country, particularily in reference to the up-coming election, it seems to me (and I maybe wrong here but this is how it looks to this outsider) that your country is deeply divided. - with one "side" having a great deal of difficulty even listening to what the other "side" is saying. Perhaps this take is wrong. Perhaps you are not all as angry as you seem with each other.
I guess I am wondering if you have thought of seperating? With one part of your country becoming the Republic of Republicans and the Democrats of DemoLand or something like that? Have you ever thought of trying to negotiate an agreement, rather than having a war?
Yours for trying to understand,
Sudden
That is what is one of the things that is so fragile, special, and unique about America. We are about negotiating and agreement. We believe the power of government lies in the average citizen and that citizens will disaggree sometimes bitterly and even violently. However, citizens will primarily work together for the common good.
Our Constitution gives citizens the right to overthrow the government, but only as a last resort. Only when our political system of checks and balances falls apart and there is not hope for negotitaion and agreement for the common good, are the citizens of America permitted to take up arms and change the government, to restore the government to that which is described and outlined in our Constitution. (JMO)
Pray for peace,wisdom, and sound leadership, BUT keep your powder dry.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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