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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/19/2005 10:30:48 PM
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salos
Posts: 168
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"Conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you Who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead..." (I Peter 1:17b-21a, NKJV)
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/19/2005 10:36:51 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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Salos, what was the purpose of your post?
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:04:42 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear Walter,
Apostolic succession and True Churchdom are not the same. I disagree. Any group arising OUTSIDE of the continuity has no authority, because it was not given to them.
Imaging the USA in the beginning sending out ambassadors to other countries as representatives. Then imagine now, years later, except that now there are other political groups who do not agree with the government, so they form their own gov't and ordain their own ambassadors. Do you think this new group, with its new ordained ambassadors have any real authority? Do you think these new group really represents the USA?
Dear Walter,
No, I do not. However, that does not prohibit the Apostolic Succession continuing "outside the True Church" for the reasons I have already given.
On the Feast of the Martyrs of Korea
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:06:23 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Since the Gospel has come down by believers and believers have baptized believers and believers have discipled believers since the original Apostles, I guess you can say that there is indeed a succession of the priesthood of believers.
Dear Euty,
The priesthood of believers is a result of Baptism. It is different than the Apostolic Succession, as I am sure you already know.
On the Feast of the Martyrs of Korea
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:36:15 AM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 350
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Thank you guys.
ShouldKnowBetter, I think that would effectively prove that God has taken His Church, and if not, then He has forsaken her which is highly doubtful.
I was more thinking of God never really being in the "c"hurch in the first place. Look at all the temples of men set up proclaiming they are the church... Not saying any particular denomination or anything, but I think we all can think of an example or two.
_____________________________
Seek Wisdom from God in prayer and scripture
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 9:05:36 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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If I may take the liberty of an analogy;
A company develops a great software product that fixes a really serious problem for all humanity, and for whatever reason decides to put it out as freeware. The only stipulation is that whoever uses it has to do it in a certain way as instructed in the user’s manual and it comes with a built in Authorized Technician.
A reseller pirates the freeware, repackages it, and claims to be the only one that has this fix for humanity. They promote the use of the user’s guide, but add to it constantly to “prove” they are the only “authorized” source. The reseller spends much time and resources to promote the falsehood that they have the only
‘Factory trained” and “authorized” technicians. The reseller still offers the freeware as free, but to get it for free you must buy a lot of other things that are not listed in the original user’s manual.
The original software is free and available to all, but the confusion of “we are the authorized” distributor and the add-ons to the user’s manual cause many not to get the fix. Many that do buy into the resellers “authorized” pitch are even more confused by all the add-ons and do not follow the simple instructions in the original user’s guide. Sadly those will discover one day that what they thought was a fix; wasn’t.
The developer = God
The software = Salvation
User’s Guide = New Testament
The Authorized Technician = Holy Spirit
The reseller = RCC, EOC, and others.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 9:25:59 AM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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One succession that was NOT apostolic or charasmatic but just plain wrong:
Excluding the Jewish believers in 325 and branding them as heretics. These are the decendants of the Jerusalem church (the VERY first) under James. They were excluded and marginalized because they looked too Jewish. That broke any line of succession right then and there.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 10:30:18 AM
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ayani
Posts: 194
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
The Church, whether celestial or earthly is one and the same. There is no Church that is celestial, and another that is earthly.
Hi Walter:
The earthly church is not synonymous with the celestial church. The earthly church is part of the celestial church, but the celestial church is not bound by the phsical limitations of the earthly church, and is not afflicted with the sinfulness that the particular church can be. The earthly church longs to be reunited with Christ - the celestial church already is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ayani The Jesus of the Gospels was not impressed with antiquity. He was not impressed with the priest and scribes who waved their heritage in people's faces, their "patristic succession" if you will, as if it were license from God, a license certifying their perfect righteousness and primary (or sole) place in God's kingdom.quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquezIt was God who established it. It was God who established the Levites for their priestly office. It was God who established the Davidic line. It was God who established the office of the Apostles and gave them authority to appoint bishops.
You didn't address my objection.
Ezra, in his very good last post, has basically made the argument I would try to make. It appears to me that that your argument requires flipping between several different meanings of the word "Church". Again, you need to define what you mean by "Church" so we know exactly which meaning you're using.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 11:07:08 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
No, I do not. However, that does not prohibit the Apostolic Succession continuing "outside the True Church" for the reasons I have already given. But this is not scriptural or taught by the Church thru out the ages.
IBM sends out their own reps to do their job, and at the same time there is another company sending reps who say they are IBM employees. Get my point?
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 11:07:56 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Show me in scripture where the Holy Spirit ordained someone outside the Church who started their own group separate from the body. Or were all ordination thru the Church? I believe is the latter.
Obviously, you would not find it in Scripture, since the Acts of the Apostles are exactly that. But take the example of the Ethiopian eunuch who went back to his country as a Christian. Surely he would have shared the Gospel and a church or churches would have been eventually established in Ethiopia. Churches were established in Ethiopia as well as other parts of Africa without any "apostolic succession".
quote:
I understand there are physically separate congregations thru out the world, but even so, they are united.
And all Christian churches are "united" in the sense that they all believe the fundamentals of the faith, e.g. the Nicene Creed. There are varieties of interpretation, but the fundamentals do not change. Denominationalism is essentially differences in interpretation.
quote:
So why was it necessary for the Church at Antioch to receive instruction from Jerusalem if they were responsible to the Lord Himself?
You seem to forget that in the Acts of the Apostles we see a period of transition, and receiving instruction from Jerusalem was a part of that, especially regarding the application of the Law of Moses. Subsequently, we see the churches to whom the letters were written as operating autonomously. That is the NT pattern, and it is very clear in the book of Revelation, which is a later period.
Had it not been for the pretensions of Rome and its thirst for power (along with the establishment of the pope), all churches would have continued to operate in the same way. Of course, the Byzantines also brought together church and state, as did the Reformers, and that was contrary to Scripture. Constantine and Augustine can take responsibility for a lot of the confusion.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 12:22:41 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
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From: Mississippi
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Dear Ayani,
Charismatic succession is one of those terms that have the potential to irritate and alienate those who you don't include within it.
Orthodoxy believes that the life of the Church is the life of the Spirit. Her Tradition as much as it is a coninuity of what is passed down it is also lived in and experienced and understood and finds new expression in new contexts (without changing its old content) for itself age to age by the Spirit. In Revelation I believe it says, the Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Jesus Christ. The Charismatic succession is the fullness of the transmission of this Prophetic Spirit within the Church.
It is the presence of this Spirit that will cause the laity to withstand erring hierarchs, or give a lone hierarch the grace to stand when it seems the rest of their peer have abandoned their senses or their responsibilities and have seriously compromised themselves in some way. It is this Spirit that gives us starets/geronti in unbroken succession age to age, and it is from this Spirit that the Saints arise and are made known within the Church.
When we read in the NT of the kind of grace know to the apostles and thier intimate disciples we are seeing the living expression of this Charismata. It is in this Charismata that apostolic succession is a living gift of the Spirit and not a simple historical continutity of succession. As time progressed it became evident that not all who followed in the apostolic line were men who were of the same spiritual caliber as those before them. Some turned out to be little more than place holders they were of such low caliber. But for all their lack of apparant grace they did not preach heresy and so maintained the tranmission of the episcopacy. But the episcopacy is but one operation of this Spirit (pastors and teachers). It has expression in the Body as well (thus Orthodoxy does not recognize a magisterium among her heirarchs such as Rome does). And it is in body that the full expression of this grace has been most apparent. Orthodox have a very ancient tradition called Starets (Russian) or geronti (Greek). It means "elder", and is a term reserved for those who are spiritual fathers or mothers of a certain great and generally hidden grace. They are generally known only to themselves and to their disciples for most of their lives. Some of their disciples carry on and bear the fullness of this grace after them. Afterwards their disciples will publish the writings of their elders, collect their wise sayings and recount their lives, which are quite often filled with many wonders(it is a rich and wonderful literature filled with nuggets of jaw dropping wisdom). It is the continuity of the master and disciple system that goes back to Christ, and very probably long before him to those institutions known as schools of the prophets. Some of these become clergy, some do not, but both stand within the fullness of expression of the Spirit of Prophecy. It is because of this in Orthodoxy confession is not limited to the sphere of priests and bishops. Those who are staretz/geronti or who are blessed to serve as spiritual parents may hear confessions as well. But one may only expect "infallible" counsel from the staretz.
These men and women are the bone core...the very marrow of Orthodoxy, the font from which the Church is refreshed and renewed age to age, and a great many of her saints are drawn from their ranks. And when I speak of wonders and prophesies concerning these men and women, I do not speak loosely or in terms to be compared with the so called wonders and prophesies of the current charismatic movement , so called. When these speak that this or that thing will come to pass, it does. They pass the OT test of the prophets, their words do not fall to the ground. When they speak of being a light for Christ, they do not just speak metaphorically, they speak as ones literally transfirgured like Christ at Mt. Tabor, or like St. Stephen before his accusers. Orthodox spiritual writings contain hundreds and thousands of accounts of the wonders done in and through them, healings, divine guidance, heavenly reproofs, miracles, and prophesy. For example, the Holy Fool Abel told Czar-Paul what would be fall him and all of Russia for many years to come. Czar Paul wrote a letter to his royal descendant telling all of what the Holy Fool Abel had told him. He sealed it in a small golden coffer and left instructions that 100 years hence it was to be given to the Czar. That letter was delivered to Czar Nicholas II in 1908. It is said that he wept unconsolably for two days. It told of his coming martyrdom, the martyrdom of all his family, and the great troubles that would befall Russia and the Church there for many years to come. It was that letter which gave Czar Nicholas the courage to remain and suffer with his people rather than flee with the White Russian Army when he had the chance. But such things were known to a number of other elders like St. Seraphim of Sarov who reposed in 1833. He too foretold the troubles coming upon Russia including the murder of the Czar and his family. It is said when asked about what would come after that St. Seraphim could not speak but would only weep. Every major innovation of science has been foretold by these Holy men and women for hundreds of years...everything from submarines to aircraft to cell phones to satellites to TVs to unisex fashions. The rise of the Arab was known in the time of St. Constantine though then it was still 400 years away. Indeed the whole span of time from the rise to the fall of Arab power was foretold in his time (If I remember correctly it will begin to crubble in the mid to late 2030s). Well I digress
My point is it is the charismatic succession that ulitmately matter for the life of the Church age to age, it is that apostolic grace active in the whole Body from the day of Pentecost forwards. If you read certain Orthodox discussions of various communions or certain persons in schism you will note the term "without grace". To say someone or some communion is without grace means they stand outside the Charismatic dimension of the grace of the Church. But that said, it is not as cut and dried as all that for conversely, wherever the Spirit is there is grace.
This really is one of those areas hard to discuss intelligibly beyond a very shallow surface. The best way to discuss it is to show it. So to that end I recommend to you two books, one the Life of St. Seraphim of Sarov by Fr. Lazarus Moore, and the other, A Night on the the Holy Mountain by Heirotheos Valachthos (hope I spelled that right).
< Message edited by unworthyseraphim -- 9/20/2005 12:26:09 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 1:23:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Ayani,
Charismatic succession is one of those terms that have the potential to irritate and alienate those who you don't include within it.
Orthodoxy believes that the life of the Church is the life of the Spirit. Her Tradition as much as it is a coninuity of what is passed down it is also lived in and experienced and understood and finds new expression in new contexts (without changing its old content) for itself age to age by the Spirit. In Revelation I believe it says, the Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Jesus Christ. The Charismatic succession is the fullness of the transmission of this Prophetic Spirit within the Church.
It is the presence of this Spirit that will cause the laity to withstand erring hierarchs, or give a lone hierarch the grace to stand when it seems the rest of their peer have abandoned their senses or their responsibilities and have seriously compromised themselves in some way. It is this Spirit that gives us starets/geronti in unbroken succession age to age, and it is from this Spirit that the Saints arise and are made known within the Church.
When we read in the NT of the kind of grace know to the apostles and thier intimate disciples we are seeing the living expression of this Charismata. It is in this Charismata that apostolic succession is a living gift of the Spirit and not a simple historical continutity of succession. As time progressed it became evident that not all who followed in the apostolic line were men who were of the same spiritual caliber as those before them. Some turned out to be little more than place holders they were of such low caliber. But for all their lack of apparant grace they did not preach heresy and so maintained the tranmission of the episcopacy. But the episcopacy is but one operation of this Spirit (pastors and teachers). It has expression in the Body as well (thus Orthodoxy does not recognize a magisterium among her heirarchs such as Rome does). And it is in body that the full expression of this grace has been most apparent. Orthodox have a very ancient tradition called Starets (Russian) or geronti (Greek). It means "elder", and is a term reserved for those who are spiritual fathers or mothers of a certain great and generally hidden grace. They are generally known only to themselves and to their disciples for most of their lives. Some of their disciples carry on and bear the fullness of this grace after them. Afterwards their disciples will publish the writings of their elders, collect their wise sayings and recount their lives, which are quite often filled with many wonders(it is a rich and wonderful literature filled with nuggets of jaw dropping wisdom). It is the continuity of the master and disciple system that goes back to Christ, and very probably long before him to those institutions known as schools of the prophets. Some of these become clergy, some do not, but both stand within the fullness of expression of the Spirit of Prophecy. It is because of this in Orthodoxy confession is not limited to the sphere of priests and bishops. Those who are staretz/geronti or who are blessed to serve as spiritual parents may hear confessions as well. But one may only expect "infallible" counsel from the staretz.
These men and women are the bone core...the very marrow of Orthodoxy, the font from which the Church is refreshed and renewed age to age, and a great many of her saints are drawn from their ranks. And when I speak of wonders and prophesies concerning these men and women, I do not speak loosely or in terms to be compared with the so called wonders and prophesies of the current charismatic movement , so called. When these speak that this or that thing will come to pass, it does. They pass the OT test of the prophets, their words do not fall to the ground. When they speak of being a light for Christ, they do not just speak metaphorically, they speak as ones literally transfirgured like Christ at Mt. Tabor, or like St. Stephen before his accusers. Orthodox spiritual writings contain hundreds and thousands of accounts of the wonders done in and through them, healings, divine guidance, heavenly reproofs, miracles, and prophesy. For example, the Holy Fool Abel told Czar-Paul what would be fall him and all of Russia for many years to come. Czar Paul wrote a letter to his royal descendant telling all of what the Holy Fool Abel had told him. He sealed it in a small golden coffer and left instructions that 100 years hence it was to be given to the Czar. That letter was delivered to Czar Nicholas II in 1908. It is said that he wept unconsolably for two days. It told of his coming martyrdom, the martyrdom of all his family, and the great troubles that would befall Russia and the Church there for many years to come. It was that letter which gave Czar Nicholas the courage to remain and suffer with his people rather than flee with the White Russian Army when he had the chance. But such things were known to a number of other elders like St. Seraphim of Sarov who reposed in 1833. He too foretold the troubles coming upon Russia including the murder of the Czar and his family. It is said when asked about what would come after that St. Seraphim could not speak but would only weep. Every major innovation of science has been foretold by these Holy men and women for hundreds of years...everything from submarines to aircraft to cell phones to satellites to TVs to unisex fashions. The rise of the Arab was known in the time of St. Constantine though then it was still 400 years away. Indeed the whole span of time from the rise to the fall of Arab power was foretold in his time (If I remember correctly it will begin to crubble in the mid to late 2030s). Well I digress
My point is it is the charismatic succession that ulitmately matter for the life of the Church age to age, it is that apostolic grace active in the whole Body from the day of Pentecost forwards. If you read certain Orthodox discussions of various communions or certain persons in schism you will note the term "without grace". To say someone or some communion is without grace means they stand outside the Charismatic dimension of the grace of the Church. But that said, it is not as cut and dried as all that for conversely, wherever the Spirit is there is grace.
This really is one of those areas hard to discuss intelligibly beyond a very shallow surface. The best way to discuss it is to show it. So to that end I recommend to you two books, one the Life of St. Seraphim of Sarov by Fr. Lazarus Moore, and the other, A Night on the the Holy Mountain by Heirotheos Valachthos (hope I spelled that right).
Unworthyseraphim,
I pray that you do not think me brash, but I consider that to be man's rules and man's traditions trying to control God's plan for salvation. What a shame.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 9/20/2005 9:56:25 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 6:32:06 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
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Dear James,
I can certainly understand feeling man's rules and traditions are a crock. That's why I got tired of them and opted to follow God's rules and His Tradition. So much for the oneupism.
But if you read more closely you would see I was not speaking about a tradition of ideation about God, good bad or indifferent. I spoke of a transmission of a quality of life in Christ, part of that which has been handed down in Orthodoxy is a living continuity of masters and disciples who know Christ in depths and ways most do not even consider existing anymore outside the pages of the NT. But they do exist even if they are not as plentiful as they were in earlier times. You may doubt what one man says if he just spouts off what he thinks about a passage of scripture or this thing or that thing. Arguing with a life that defies argument is something else altogether. How do you argue with men who run on water, prophesy unerringly in detail about people and events hundreds of years after them, raise the dead, heal the sick, know the hearts of men, and who when they pray are seen to shine with the uncreated light of Mt. Tabor. How do you argue with hundreds and thousands of hurting souls who are let to repentance and the unfeigned love and service of Christ in all simplicity and humility?
You can deny such things exist. You can call it all works of the devil. But what you can't do is argue with it because it is there a reality that may be experienced at the hands of men and women who live and breath and whom you can reach out and touch.
No, I'm not talking about a tradition of ideation or cultural habit...but about the "tradition" the paradosis, the passing down age to age of a particular quality of interpersonal relationship and a life in Christ that reduplicates the caliber of life in Christ known by the Apostles and their disciples.
A recent example of such a one was Elder Cleopas of Sihastra monestry in Romania who reposed in 1998. His disciples still live and some will certianly carry on after him. Young people are drawn to them in the mountains and hollows of Romania they way they follow rock stars here.
I know you do not believe me and consider the stories of these men I tell about to either be fables or demonic pretensions, but I tell you anyway just so you may know the life in Christ that the Apostles and their generation knew has not passed from the earth. The gates of hell still have not prevailed to take it all away.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 6:54:03 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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unworthyseraphim,
I carefully read both of your post - still phoney baloney in my humble opinion- but your analogy with the rock star was probably right on.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 9/20/2005 9:57:01 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:37:04 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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If you don't have any evidence to disprove what another person said, please refrain with the insults.
I am sorry unworthyseraphim.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:38:03 PM
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ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Orthodoxy believes that the life of the Church is the life of the Spirit. Her Tradition as much as it is a coninuity of what is passed down it is also lived in and experienced and understood and finds new expression in new contexts (without changing its old content) for itself age to age by the Spirit. In Revelation I believe it says, the Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Jesus Christ. The Charismatic succession is the fullness of the transmission of this Prophetic Spirit within the Church.
It is the presence of this Spirit that will cause the laity to withstand erring hierarchs, or give a lone hierarch the grace to stand when it seems the rest of their peer have abandoned their senses or their responsibilities and have seriously compromised themselves in some way. It is this Spirit that gives us starets/geronti in unbroken succession age to age, and it is from this Spirit that the Saints arise and are made known within the Church.
UnworthySeraphim:
Thanks for your careful explanation. I have read it through a couple of times. I admit am struggling to understand it , as you prophesy in your last sentence! However, I get the feeling you are on to something important, and don't consider it Bunk.
See if I am understanding you right:
The Charismatic succession is the life of the Holy Spirit in the church and the believer. Not just the tradition as passed down, but the life of faith and experience of the faithful, in relationship with Trinity, which was enjoyed by the Apostles.
If this is what Charismatic succession is, I like it.
Now, as you might imagine, I may be sceptical about particular miraculous claims of prophesy or miracles. And, you insinuate that you might limit this to certain groups (or am I reading too much between the lines?), which is not a position I take.
You Othodox, if you are representative, do have a very interesting perspective on some things.
But, Walter is wanting to talk about Apostolic Succession-
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:51:14 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
You Othodox, if you are representative, do have a very interesting perspective on some things.
But, Walter is wanting to talk about Apostolic Succession- Actually it is fine. He is trying to prove that the True Church is still active. And possibly say that it is the Orthodox Church.
And by Apostolic succession, I don't mean that the office was transfered.
Unworthyseraphim gave a few examples of teachers passing their teachings down to their students, and those to their disciples, and so on. That is what I mean by Apostolic succession.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 7:56:52 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11690
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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quote:
If you don't have any evidence to disprove what another person said, please refrain with the insults.
Yes--please, let's choose our words more carefully.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 8:55:40 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Charismatic succession is one of those terms that have the potential to irritate and alienate those who you don't include within it.
"those who you don't include within it" ???
Herein lies the problem (error) that has been passed down from those who created the whole idea to elevate their claim to fame.
Christ builds His church (sometimes He even allows us to help). The "church" has taught that it can include/exclude people. The scriptures say that the Word is the power. This same Word that the church kept from the common man to facilitate their power/control.
God preserved His people and His Torah just as He preserves His church (the body off Christ) and His Word today.
The "church" invented/adopted these things after the Apostles were gone (IMO to help maintain its power (position/status) ).
Luk 11:49-52 Therefore also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; and some of them they will kill and persecute, (50) that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (51) from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.' Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. (52) Woe to you lawyers! For you took away the key of knowledge. You didn't enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in, you hindered."
The "church" kept the Word (key) from the common man to facilitate their power/control.
Eph 2:17-20 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. (18) For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. (19) So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, (20) being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone;
On this foundation the church (the body of Christ) is built. The true "church" is not built on the foundation of the RCC or the EOC, etc.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 9:57:18 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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unworthyseraphim,
If I offended you or anyone else I apologize, sincerely apologize.
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
I know you do not believe me and consider the stories of these men I tell about to either be fables or demonic pretensions, but I tell you anyway just so you may know the life in Christ that the Apostles and their generation knew has not passed from the earth. The gates of hell still have not prevailed to take it all away.
I totally agree with you that the life in Christ that the Apostles and the first century Church lived has not passed. It is just my contention that you do not have to separate yourself from or elevate yourself above the laity to be as the New Testament tells us is its instruction and examples. It is not some great mystical magical occurrence; it is called the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and sanctification by His guidance. The elevation and separation of the clergy is exactly what has happened to the EOC, the RCC, and some others. I believe Christ called it the practice of the Nicolaitans, and He said He hated it. Since Christ doesn't change then He probably still does hate it.
Those who are called to one of the ministries (including apostles) and respond have a very straightforward purpose to complete;
(Eph 4:11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
I think that covers all of the ministry offices. Now what are these suppose to do;
(Eph 4:12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
And
(2Ti 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
The examples given us in Scripture are to be out among the people; just because someone has one of the ministry gifts does not elevate them or separate them from the other believers. As a matter of fact it humbles us to be servants of the laity and not task masters or some spiritual guru of one flavor or another. That is phoniness in the highest degree and ranks right up there with the television prophets. Of course this is just my humble opinion.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 10:10:07 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
Christ builds His church (sometimes He even allows us to help). The "church" has taught that it can include/exclude people. The scriptures say that the Word is the power. This same Word that the church kept from the common man to facilitate their power/control. You mean the church that unworthyseraphim attend has done this? When?
quote:
God preserved His people and His Torah just as He preserves His church (the body off Christ) and His Word today. I agree. But, just like we have a physical evidence of the Jews and the Torah, there is also a physical evidence of the Church and the NT bible. Except that many only accept the physical evidence of the NT bible. How about the Church? I believe she is still around.
quote:
The "church" invented/adopted these things after the Apostles were gone (IMO to help maintain its power (position/status) ). Where do you get this from? Was the Church immediately corrupted after the last Apostle? Has God left the Church?
quote:
Luk 11:49-52 Therefore also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; and some of them they will kill and persecute, (50) that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (51) from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.' Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. (52) Woe to you lawyers! For you took away the key of knowledge. You didn't enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in, you hindered."
The "church" kept the Word (key) from the common man to facilitate their power/control. I don't think you can take this verse to apply it to the Church, or anyone else other than its intended party. Jesus was talking about the Pharisees, NOT the Church.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/20/2005 10:15:41 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I believe Christ called it the practice of the Nicolaitans, and He said He hated it. Since Christ doesn't change then He probably still does hate it. If I remember, I believe the Nicolaitans were promiscuous. Since they were set free, they thought they were free to do whatever they wanted.
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