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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2006 7:45:52 PM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 456
Joined: 4/14/2005
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No, you have the burden of proof. You're the one making flat out illogical and hypocritical statements as if they came with a theologically sound explanation. I'm merely questioning you to provide sound reasoning as to why it's ok to treat my diabetes but not my bipolar. It's a question I ask everyone to answer when making such an assertion.
Mental illness is known to involve medically identifiable differences in how the brain functions - though I will give you that there's still a bit of debate as to which chemicals cause those differences, how to treat said differences and even as (to some extent) about whether or not mental illnesses really are things that warrant treatment (this theory holds that they're just different ways of functioning other than what's typically asserted as "normal").
Over the years, in a desperate attempt to be healed of bipolar and avoid psychiatrists and psychiatric treatments, I did go to all sorts of ministers and minstries that promised they'd guide me to the Lord's healing. I've endured 3 (or was it 4?) "deliverance services" (also known as exorcisms). I've been prayed over for healing of the bipolar so many times I've lost count. I've been told to repeatedly pray all sorts of prayers. I've been demanded to repent of sins that aren't even biblically sins (like my ethnicity). I've been put on weird (supposedly Biblical) diet and exercise plans. I've been demanded to do all sorts of fasts. I've had my homes prayed over to cleanse them of any spells, curses, or other spiritual impurities placed there by others. I've even had people research several generations of my family trying to indentify and break generational curses.
Guess what? Despite well over 10 years of doing that, I still ended up having to seek psychiatric care for the bipolar (and was far enough off my rocker I almost ended up with a forced hospitalization). All those rituals, fasts, prayers and whatnot did nothing to stop the mood swings, cure the anxiety, or stop the voices that sometimes accompany the mood episodes. And yeah, I'd love to hear God explain why He chose to leave me with this illness...
There are a few "healing ministries" that have formulaic guides to how to "minister" to various diseases. I can even think of one that prints a book about which demons and sins create what diseases (demons apparently are always involved in mental illness according to these groups - and often epilepsy too). But just because a person says it's so, does not mean that it really IS so according to the Lord. If you've got a theologically sound proof as to why mental illness is ALWAYS spiritually based and should ONLY be cured by the Lord's healing, I'd love to see it - but so far no one has ever had such and we always land back at the question of why is it ok to seek medical care for an illness outside the brain but not for an illness involving the brain?
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[Deleted] - 4/12/2006 8:01:51 PM
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2006 10:03:15 PM
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cherokee
Posts: 8
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Diolectic,
Do you suffer from mental illness? Have you ever suffered from mental illness?
Have you ever been diagnosed or treated for mental illness but disagree with the dx?
Do you have a degree related to medicine or psychology/psychiatry?
Why do you carry so much contempt for the field of psychology and psychiatry?
Has someone close to you been dxed or treated for mental illness?
If you forget your past, you're bound to repeat it. So looking into your past makes sense if it's causing you problems in the here and now. Just don't stare is what's commonly advised.
I have never worked with a psychologist that denied any faith the patient participated in. That's just bull saying they do that. They always advise to go where you feel most comfortable and get strength. Be it a spouse, a religion or a troll (being facetious). They're not there to save your soul but to help you learn how to be mentally stable. We, as Christians, know that Christ saves our souls. It's each individuals responsibility to see to their souls.
I wouldn't go to my OB/GYN and ask him to save me and then check out my pelvic pain. I would ask him to check out the medical problem and do what's necessary to solve that problem. Then I'd take up my soul with my priest, pastor or other church leader.
You have yet to describe or cite any danger of seeing a psychologist. Not your opinion. But documented proof of the danger.
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[Deleted] - 4/13/2006 4:49:08 PM
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 5:33:53 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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Please read for clear understanding of my answers to your complaints about my reasons for being against Psycology, if you realy want to understand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
You're the one making flat out illogical and hypocritical statements as if they came with a theologically sound explanation. How and why are they hypocritical?
I can give sound theologically explanations to all my comments, It would be foolish if I couldn't.
quote:
I'm merely questioning you to provide sound reasoning as to why it's ok to treat my diabetes but not my bipolar.
Diabetes is a phisical ailment, bipolar is psycological and belongs to Christ.
quote:
Mental illness is known to involve medically identifiable differences in how the brain functions - though I will give you that there's still a bit of debate as to which chemicals cause those differences, how to treat said differences and even as (to some extent) about whether or not mental illnesses really are things that warrant treatment (this theory holds that they're just different ways of functioning other than what's typically asserted as "normal").
Mental illness or anything that involvse our soul "psychy" is because we made it that way through out our lives.
When we are born, our minds are a blank slate. We then learn ways of thinking based on what we learn to believe. How we think also plays a big role in the way our brain forms.
The way we think literally changes the physical structure of our brain. After yaers of thinking a certain way, our mind becomes "used to" that thinking pattern. Like a "rut" in a road, when we ride a bike in a road with a rut, we are hard pressed to ride in that rut.
The physical operations and functions of the brain are naturally connected to the sieries of habitual ways of thinking based on what we believe. We create neural pathways by thinking the same way though out our life. This in turn plays a role in how the chemistry of our brain works.
The reason you have lost control is because you have suffered physical neurological changes based in your brain and nervous systems. The disorder manifests in long term behaviors which were not outside the realm of your own control but eventualy became out of the realm of your own control. It is true enough that it begins with chosen behavior, but the problem has moved outside the realm of free choice it has developed into a long term mental and physical neurological disorder. Now that the new neurological pathways are permanently established they will not just disappear accept by prayer and seeking GOD!
quote:
I've even had people research several generations of my family trying to indentify and break generational curses.
Generational curses are all broken once we trust Jesus for our salvation and the fact for generational curses are mistaken.
Exodus 20:5b I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.
This is a warning about the grave consequences of worshiping other gods.
this warning is coupled with a greater promise of God's love: “But showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” (verse 6).
You think God will punish the children and grandchildren for sins that they did not personally commit?
Deuteronomy 24:16:Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
Scripture gives good reason to reject this.
The danger is, thinking that you just happend to get this disorder by no reason of yourself, like you are innocent.
You must know that you are guilty of bringing this onto yourself, by reason of believing lies that lead you to where you ended up in your condition.
Are we not all sinfull by nature when we are born until we are born again?
This is why beliveing lies are so dangerous and why it is true that the truth shall make you free.John 8:32
God does not play the blaim game.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
His will is for you to be free! You can not deny that.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We must pray to Jesus to show us the lies that we hold and start believing the truth of the matter. As we practice thinking and believing in the way we should, it will restructure the neural pathways correctly and inturn balance the chemical imbalance, but this can only be done by prayer.
Personal prayer and not going to men or ministries or methodes. True councilors will not tell you how to be delivered but will only lead you correctly to Christ.
quote:
Over the years, in a desperate attempt to be healed of bipolar and avoid psychiatrists and psychiatric treatments, I did go to all sorts of ministers and minstries that promised they'd guide me to the Lord's healing. I've endured 3 (or was it 4?) "deliverance services" (also known as exorcisms). I've been prayed over for healing of the bipolar so many times I've lost count. I've been told to repeatedly pray all sorts of prayers. I've been demanded to repent of sins that aren't even biblically sins (like my ethnicity). I've been put on weird (supposedly Biblical) diet and exercise plans. I've been demanded to do all sorts of fasts. I've had my homes prayed over to cleanse them of any spells, curses, or other spiritual impurities placed there by others. I've even had people research several generations of my family trying to indentify and break generational curses.
Guess what? Despite well over 10 years of doing that, I still ended up having to seek psychiatric care for the bipolar (and was far enough off my rocker I almost ended up with a forced hospitalization). All those rituals, fasts, prayers and whatnot did nothing to stop the mood swings, cure the anxiety, or stop the voices that sometimes accompany the mood episodes. And yeah, I'd love to hear God explain why He chose to leave me with this illness......
Are you saying that prayer didn't work? Are you still beliveing lies (maybe of psycology) that keep you bound?
Sounds like you were going to men and not Jesus.quote:
I did go to all sorts of ministers and minstries that promised they'd guide me to the Lord's healing.
They told you what to do and what to pray. They did not guide you to the Lord Himself but to HIS healing, when was being lead to Jesus' healing ever a thing to do? True councilors will not tell you how to be delivered but will only lead you correctly to Christ.
Don't seek for what is the Lords' but only Him.
Did you "fast" to GOD and for HIS mind on the matter? Or did you fast to get something?
How did you fast?
Why did you end up having to seek psychiatric care for the bipolar?
quote:
I'd love to hear God explain why He chose to leave me with this illness
I'd love to hear Jesus explain why He chose to stay where he was for two more days when he received the news that Lazarus was sick.
But I do know why, Jesus wanted Lazarus to die so Lazarus would have nothing to do with the healing.
Don't think that you need to physicly die, but die to self and self effort. Any effort on our part is not right.
James 1:25 But the one looking into the perfect Law of liberty[freedom], and continuing in it, this one not having become a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in his doing.
James 2:12 So speak and so do as being about to be judged through a Law of liberty[freedom].
What is this Law of liberty?
Romans 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Liberty is being set free.
quote:
Do you have a degree related to medicine or psychology/psychiatry?
No, but I am legally Ordain of Christ, which is better?
quote:
If you forget your past, you're bound to repeat it. So looking into your past makes sense if it's causing you problems in the here and now. Just don't stare is what's commonly advised.
Is this Scripturel?
When and where did the Bible tell us this?
Believing a lie is causeing your problem.
quote:
They're not there to save your soul but to help you learn how to be mentally stable.
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
If you are mentally stable just have faith in Jesus only and stop doubting.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
quote:
It's each individuals responsibility to see to their souls.
Scriture & verse please?
quote:
You have yet to describe or cite any danger of seeing a psychologist. Not your opinion. But documented proof of the danger.
Proof of the danger:
As I mentioned befor, The danger is thinking that you just happend to get this disorder by no reason of yourself, like you are innocent. Re-read what I said about this.
Furthermore, Arent you puting your soul in the hands of an unsaved man who knows nothing about the soul?
Remember that the word psychology comes from the greek word Psookay, Psychy which is soul.
The only thing that a psychologist can do is cover up symptoms but ony God can free, cure, and deliver. They can only lead you to self effort. They can only decieve you with so called "wisdom" Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1Corinth 1:18-21,23-25 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Corinth 1:23-25 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
We all were born spiritually dead and therefore we were all soulish in nature. Our souls ruled our physical bodies. When we became born again, we became spiritually alive to Christ and no longer soulish.
Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. We do have the ability for this.
2Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
It is the soul that we battle everyday, who will rule? Will it be our soulish passion to walk after the flesh, or will it be our spirit, to life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death?
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit: The law of liberty(freedom)
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 4/13/2006 5:49:55 PM >
_____________________________
We are created to be slaves with bonds of freedom. As a astronaut is free un-tethered to his life supporting space shuttle, so would we be free from God.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 5:46:59 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: diolectic
Would you rather be medicated or delivered?
Well, I assume you also say that to heart patients, and diabetics, and folks with Parkinson's Disease...if you are being consistent, that is.
Please, don't mix physical ailments whith psycological ailments. They are very diferent things.
Of course anyone should see a doctor for a broken leg.
diabetics have a pancreas that doesn't produce insulin.
Parkinson's Disease is a progressive nervous disease associated with the destruction of brain cells that produce dopamine and characterized by muscular tremorand slowing of movement.
This may sound like a broken record but some have a habit of bypassing long posts.
Mental health is:
Changes the physical structure of our brain caused by habitual ways of thinking based on what we believe.
The reason you have loose control is because you have suffered physical neurological changes based in your brain and nervous systems. The disorder manifests in long term behaviors which were not outside the realm of your own control but eventualy became out of the realm of your own control. It is true enough that it begins with chosen behavior, but the problem has moved outside the realm of free choice it has developed into a long term mental and physical neurological disorder. Now that the new neurological pathways are permanently established they will not just disappear accept by prayer and seeking GOD.
The danger is, thinking that you just happend to get this disorder by no reason of yourself, like you are innocent.
You must know that you are guilty of bringing this onto yourself, by reason of believing lies that lead you to where you ended up in your condition.
_____________________________
We are created to be slaves with bonds of freedom. As a astronaut is free un-tethered to his life supporting space shuttle, so would we be free from God.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 6:55:51 PM
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pneumatikos1123
Posts: 45
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
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what you are describing is based on the theory of conditioning, operant conditioning I do believe. It is based on the theory that after a certain number of times repeating an action, or a thought pattern, that pattern moves from our conscious control to that of our subconcious. Hence, learning to play an instrument wihtout thinking about the notes as the patterns become "automatic".
It is a theory, a reasonable one, but not the only one. Many schizophrenics that hear voices telling them to do various things do not fall under this category. Their medicine quiets the voices in their head that may be telling them anything from self-denigrating comments to encouraging them to kill someone and eat them.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 7:00:29 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10624
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
When we are born, our minds are a blank slate. We then learn ways of thinking based on what we learn to believe. How we think also plays a big role in the way our brain forms.
Well here's an outdated secular philosophy that has absolutely nothing to do with God's Word. And the funniest thing of all is that this is right out of the secular psychological writing of the secular psychologists of old. I guess you aren't against psychology after all.
quote:
The reason you have loose control is because you have suffered physical neurological changes based in your brain and nervous systems. The disorder manifests in long term behaviors which were not outside the realm of your own control but eventualy became out of the realm of your own control. It is true enough that it begins with chosen behavior, but the problem has moved outside the realm of free choice it has developed into a long term mental and physical neurological disorder. Now that the new neurological pathways are permanently established they will not just disappear accept by prayer and seeking GOD.
The danger is, thinking that you just happend to get this disorder by no reason of yourself, like you are innocent.
You must know that you are guilty of bringing this onto yourself, by reason of believing lies that lead you to where you ended up in your condition.
If I hadn't read your previous posts, I'd think you were making a joke. You really honestly believe this don't you? All mental conditions are the result of our own free will and choice. That mentally ill people are that way because they are bad. I can't even begin to express how incredibly WRONG you are. First, where is your solid Biblical support for these assertions? (and please don't rehash the same old verses you've been citing because they do not support these assertions) I mean, this is quite the theory and I'm having trouble finding one shred of evidence from Scripture to support it. Second, where is your scientific evidence to support these assertions? Oops! Forgot, you haven't study medicine, etc so you don't really know what you are talking about. I would also hazzard a guess that you have NEVER worked in any kind of medical institution (hospital, nursing home, etc). Why do I say this?
Ever been around someone who has had a stroke? What about a person who has had a traumatic head injury? Or someone with different endocrine disorders such as hyper or hypo thyroidism? What about someone with alzheimers? Or even from Down's syndrome? Guess what? There are emotional and psychological aspects as a direct result of these conditions. If psychological problems are ONLY the result of our sinful choices, I guess these medical conditions must be their fault too and we shouldn't treat them.
The fact is there are observable differences in the brains of many mentally ill individuals - physically and activity wise. There are testable differences in the chemical makeup of brains of individuals with mental health issues.
I am not responsible for my mental health struggles. I have felt nothing but comfort and peace and hope from God. It is because of my panic disorder that I am the believer I am today. What I am responsible for is how I react to my trials and what I "do" with it. I work daily on things to help manage the anxiety and depression. I hold fast to God's promises, I cling to His Word, I focus on changing negative thought patterns and I take care of my body. I also take a pill everyday. A pill that simply inhibits the uptake of a certain brain chemical which results in higher levels of that chemical in my brain (which is exactly how parkinson's is commonly treated but for some reason you think that's medical, but my issue isn't).
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 7:39:56 PM
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abcd123
Posts: 8
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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Though a thread like this could be helpful to me (& interesting) I typically don't post or read on this thread because the wide range and length of discussions tends to make my head spin, but this one caught my atttention.
I read the bottom "Diolectic" post 'cause it was what showed up first, then went up.
At first (while reading the latest post) the only thing going through my mind was that the information, the attitude, the belifef, was wrong. Just plain wrong. As I read more, delved into the former posts, the best way to describe my feelings would be boiling with anger.
These questions, to the best of my reading ability, have not been answered:
quote:
Do you suffer from mental illness? Have you ever suffered from mental illness?
Have you ever been diagnosed or treated for mental illness but disagree with the dx?
Do you have a degree related to medicine or psychology/psychiatry?
Why do you carry so much contempt for the field of psychology and psychiatry?
Has someone close to you been dxed or treated for mental illness?
Why haven't they?
Things that crossed my mind were that if someone were depressed and believed that, I don't see what would hinder suicide.
"Oh just learn how to spell already" was another thing I wouldn't loved to type back, among many other harsh comments.
Then I realized that getting so angry probably wouldn't accomplish a whole lot, and in a way "would let the person I'm mad at win", even if making me mad wasn't their goal. At the same time, I realized that I pity anyone who thinks like this - if the person has to deal with mental illness, it would make it 10,000 times worse, and if anyone who hears the LIES believes them, it could be unimaginably damagaing.
It just isn't worth my time and energy to freak out about, or even try to make huge, complicated arguments against. If someone's so set in their ways, it's not worth it to me (though I'm not saying other people should not refute this - truth needs to be told!).
I hope this doesn't become stricly debate - it certainly can't be helpful for anyone.
< Message edited by valentine0214 -- 4/13/2006 7:42:43 PM >
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[Deleted] - 4/13/2006 8:15:40 PM
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 8:37:03 PM
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PenelopePitstop
Posts: 16
Joined: 2/24/2006
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Diolectic, I do not suffer from mental health issues myself but have several friends who have various mental issues, mainly depression and OCD. For many years I watched as these people got on their knees before God and sought 'Christian' counselling to no avail. I saw their hurt and their pain. The only thing I read in your thread is judgement, where there should be mercy and compassion.
I thank God I do not have to deal with my life as my friend with OCD has to day by day for 20 years now. It is easy to tell others what to do when we have not walked a mile in their shoes. There but for the grace of God go I, is something I always remember.
Does God heal mental illness? Absolutely, but not eveyone is healed in the same way. God uses doctors to treat mental illness the same as any other disease. I know christian psychiatrists and doctors who pray and use medicine.
Some people's mental illness may need medication, some counselling, some deliverence, some laying on of hands. It is not a one size fits all answer here. Try telling a leper to wash 7 times in a dirty river, that makes sense doesn't it and yet that what God used in one scenario. God ways are bigger than our ways.
One friend of mine did have issues with generational curse and the Holy Spirit revealed this and he has been healed of his depression, alcoholism and obesity. Did the same method work for my other friend no he is still seeking God and taking medication. Does that make him less of a christian. No absolutely not.
You say quote:
Please, don't mix physical ailments whith psycological ailments. They are very diferent things.
Of course anyone should see a doctor for a broken leg.
diabetics have a pancreas that doesn't produce insulin.
Parkinson's Disease is a progressive nervous disease associated with the destruction of brain cells that produce dopamine and characterized by muscular tremorand slowing of movement.
The physical and the psychological are linked, deficiency in vitamins B12 for example can trigger mental health problem in people particulaly the elderly. How about the way SSRI's work? is this not a physical solution which allevaites certain mental health problems?
As I said before I do not have any mental health issues but I do pray for healing for those who ask me to who have these issues. Some are healed others are not, but I never judge or blame. God will show people the answer they need through whatever means medical or spiritual. Some will not see healing until they see the Lord face to face in heaven.
Please think about what you say to people who have these kinds of illnesses particulaly when you are not qualified by experience or profession to help them. If you want to really help people with mental health issues, get on your knees and intercede for them and be a friend when they need you. Be an encouragement.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 9:07:26 PM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 456
Joined: 4/14/2005
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First off, I do apologize for choosing the wrong word. Double standard would be much more appropriate. Either way it's still totally an illogical stand you're taking - and one that flies in direct opposition to modern science and medicine. I don't have any issues with holding to God's standards and truths, but you're expecting us to take as God's truths things He never said that have been disproven by science and medicine.
Wow. The last time I heard that bit about thoughts causing mental illness was from someone trying to sell me a set of Scientology classes, assessments, etc.
How you think does NOT cause physiological changes in the brain. That was disproven long, long ago. I strongly suggest you do some research into the medical nature of of mental illness.
Had you stuck with personality disorders, I might have been able to agree with you. Even psychiatrists will often admit that if the patient can learn how to think/perceive correctly then they'll function correctly to a point of reversing the diagnosis. I've NEVER heard that said by anyone (outside of Scientology) about bipolar, schizophrenia or any of the other Axis 1 disorders.
Now I'll ask you (and anyone else that thinks they know the answer) just exactly what sins have I committed, what spiritual failings do I have, what generational curse did we forget to cancel, what demon(s) did we forget to cast out that allows me to continue to have bipolar? No one has ever identified any demons or anything else that's preventing healing - and I've asked across at least 4 denominations in 7 or 8 states, including several Pastors that I'd trust to have the answers if there was such an answer. Because trust me, I do NOT want it. I've begged, pleaded, bargained, and prayed for YEARS - and so have many others.
And on a related note, I'd love to know what kinds of thoughts lead the brain and body to fluctuate between too much energy and activity and not enough energy and activity (commonly known as fluctuating between mania and depression). I got some really interesting answers from those long ago Scientologists...
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2006 9:51:36 PM
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peaceful2
Posts: 17
Joined: 4/13/2005
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Ok, I was staying out of this thread for the most part but I have to respond.
My DD is 12. When she was 4 she came to me and stated she was sad inside. This started a series of events that led to her being dxed with Early Onset Bipolar Disorder. At 7 and 8 she tried to commit suicide. She was hospitalized and placed on medications that stablized her. I'd like to know -
What sins did a child of 4, 7 or 8 commit that caused her to have these thoughts and feelings? Would you answer that Diolectic please?
She's had a cat scan that showed her synapses are not firing correctly. There weren't years for these "bad thoughts" she supposedly had to reform her brain patterns. How would you explain that one? She also has an abnormal amount of neuronal atrophy. Would you say this is caused by her sinful nature? She also has less total gray matter volume than children without the disorder. Could you please provide scripture to refute that this is not a physical manifestation of her mental illness? I'd love to show that to her doctor to have him reverse his diagnosis and correct the brain scans and the mood disorder she's experiencing.
You haven't answered the questions that were posed. What is your experience in dealing with a truly mentally ill person on a one to one basis (Not a I heard or I saw in church) for an extended period of time? What is your experience with it personally yourself? No one would deny that prayer, perhaps fasting and seeking God is part of mental health. But it is not the sum and whole.
Here's some Scripture for you:
Proverbs 18
1 An unfriendly man pursues selfish ends;
he defies all sound judgment.
2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.
3 When wickedness comes, so does contempt,
and with shame comes disgrace.
4 The words of a man's mouth are deep waters,
but the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.
5 It is not good to be partial to the wicked
or to deprive the innocent of justice.
6 A fool's lips bring him strife,
and his mouth invites a beating.
7 A fool's mouth is his undoing,
and his lips are a snare to his soul.
May God bless you in your contempt and ignorance of people who have mental illness. May you never suffer from it nor any of your family be put through the utter devestation that it can cause. Since you place all your faith in the process you've declared here for dealing with these types of issues may it always work for you. And if the time comes that this oft-times terrible burden afflicts you and yours, may you find a specialist that can lead you through it or a kind soul who has walked the way before you to help you through it. I know they'll show you the compassion, love and non-judgement you've failed to show those on this thread who deal with this every day of their lives.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2006 3:13:28 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
Status: offline
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quote:
Drugs are overprescribed, both in psychiatry and the rest of medicine. This does not meen pharmaceuticals are evil or un-Godly. These medicines are in fact quite useful. But they are not a magical cure. Yes drugs are over-prescribed.
I have bipolar. I'm taking meds for it. I also have hypothyroidism ~ and taking meds for that.
Neither the meds for my bipolar or hypothyroidism are gonna cure me. They will both treat me and help me manage the chronic conditions that I have. I have never seen them as a magic cure.
Taking meds for hypothyroidism helps me stop being so wiped out all the time.
Taking meds for bipolar helps my concentration and most importantly helps me worship my God 24/7, 52 weeks of the year. Because without the meds I would lose most of what my pastor preached about. It's still not easy, but I can get there now.
And for the record ~ my doctors and nurses work really closely with me to ensure that I'm on a level of medication that helps me, without it numbing my emotions. And too my knowledge they're not Christians.
_____________________________
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads!
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2006 3:20:06 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
How you think does NOT cause physiological changes in the brain. That was disproven long, long ago. I strongly suggest you do some research into the medical nature of of mental illness. quote:
All mental conditions are the result of our own free will and choice. That mentally ill people are that way because they are bad.
Aren't all people sinners?
Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a reprobate mind. In verse 24, 26 He gave them up because of the things they thought, believed, and did.
Therefore it can be true for psychological ailments?
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Now I'll ask you (and anyone else that thinks they know the answer) just exactly what sins have I committed, what spiritual failings do I have, what generational curse did we forget to cancel, what demon(s) did we forget to cast out that allows me to continue to have bipolar?
All your sins are covered.
However, if you hold on to lies, how can you be free from what those lies hold you to?
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Because trust me, I do NOT want it. I've begged, pleaded, bargained, and prayed for YEARS - and so have many others.
Have you just sought Jesus for who he is and not for anything else? Not asking for anything(like healing) Just enjoying His preasence? If you have, did any symptoms arise?
Psalm 16:11 you wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
I ask you, how can you have any Mental illness in His presence, when all you are there for is for HIM and HIM only?
Will you just try to come to HIM for nothing but His presence and love Him, thank Him for being GOD, and tell me if there is symptoms.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Phil 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Please explain these verses?
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phosadaud:
I can't even begin to express how incredibly WRONG you are.
Please at least one
quote:
First, where is your solid Biblical support for these assertions? (and please don't rehash the same old verses you've been citing because they do not support these assertions
Please, show me any Biblical support for your stand? And How do these verse I cite not aplye?
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Second, where is your scientific evidence to support these assertions? Oops! Forgot, you haven't study medicine, etc so you don't really know what you are talking about. I would also hazzard a guess that you have NEVER worked in any kind of medical institution (hospital, nursing home, etc). Why do I say this?
I am not a fool, delving into thing I have no knowlege of.
I have studied psychology in my ministery and know for fact what I say about psychology is true.
I am a legally Ordaind Minister and do council people.
quote:
I am not responsible for my mental health struggles.
Thinking that you just happend to get this disorder by no reason of yourself, like you are innocent.
were you not born in sin? were you never a sinner? How are you inosent?
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I have felt nothing but comfort and peace and hope from God.
What is your hope from God?
How do you have comfort and peace if you have a panic disorder? That sounds contradictory to me.
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I work daily on things to help manage the anxiety and depression.
As I asked before, Have you just sought Jesus for who he is and not for anything else? Not asking for anything(like healing) Just enjoying His preasence? Can you sufer those things while in His presence?
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valentine0214:
Do you suffer from mental illness? Have you ever suffered from mental illness?
Have you ever been diagnosed or treated for mental illness but disagree with the dx? why does this matter?
Can't I know that Jesus will heal you even if I never did?
I had Turrets syndrome.
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Do you have a degree related to medicine or psychology/psychiatry?
I have studied for a long time. But I do admit I have no degree
I have studied the Bible more though, and it is true that to find a counterfit, you must know the true only. I even know the Author very intimitly.
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Why do you carry so much contempt for the field of psychology and psychiatry?
Becaus it does not deliver, it only covers up.
Becaus it does not heal, it only medicates.
Becaus it does not bring people to Jesus, it only makes them look to them selves.
Becaus it does not have biblical basis, you have not given me any biblical suport for any of your claims, only critisism of my faith in Christ and Him alone to Heal; not just coming to Him for healing but just comming to Him just because.
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Has someone close to you been dxed or treated for mental illness?
My brother is messed up because of "christian psycology"
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Oh just learn how to spell already" was another thing I wouldn't loved to type back, among many other harsh comments.
I know that my spelling is atrocious. What's bad, is my wife is pure philippino and English is her second language, she spells better than I do.
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it would make it 10,000 times worse
How would showing someone to Jesus make it 10,000x worse?
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and if anyone who hears the LIES believes them, it could be unimaginably damagaing
I know, just look at all the un-healed psycology patiants that has not been healed at all.
Just if they knew that healing is the rule and not the exeption, biblicly.
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hobbesianchoice:
First, Jesus healed plenty of people with straight-up physical ailments, like leprosy. Jesus made no disinction between types of illness.
true, but, how can some one who is so messed up mentaly minister the gosple when they are always strugling with theire own needs and hangups. God would that they are free from themselves? Psycology is an introverted way of thinking; concentrating on one's interestsand upon oneself.
stroke, traumatic head injury, alzheimers, Down's syndrome, these are not introverted, but nuteral.
Further more, Jesus said that you have the poor with you always.
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PenelopePitstop:
The only thing I read in your thread is judgement
Please, tell me, what is the judgment that I condemn with?
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where there should be mercy and compassion.
I have been saying that I want to bring them to Jesus and HIM only to heal. Not just for the healing but so they can have the peace that he gives, the fullness of joy that there is in HIS presence; how is that not mercifull and compassionate?
I know that you say that you come to him, but have you just come to HIM JUST BECAUS HE IS. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for it is necessary for the one approaching God to believe that He is and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones diligently seeking Him.
OCD
obsessive thoughts and compulsive actions is some thing you do because you think or feal that it needs to be done. The person trapped in a pattern of repetitive thoughts and behaviors that are senseless such as cleaning, checking, counting, or hoarding.
This is do because they don't have the self control to stop thinking these. We are to have control of what we think; 2Corinth 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
How would this not aply?
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God uses doctors to treat mental illness the same as any other disease.
where in the Bible is this?
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Did the same method work for my other friend no he is still seeking God and taking medication. Does that make him less of a christian. No absolutely not.
Agreed, but, how is he seeking god is what matters.
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but I never judge or blame. I only judge the means of psycology and not the people, and blame is a referance to guilt. We are acountable for what we think and what we believe, all I am saying that there are lies that keep people bound to theire ailments that they refuse to let go because it steps on theire toes.
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God will show people the answer they need through whatever means medical or spiritual.
God can not show someone who will not look.
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Some will not see healing until they see the Lord face to face in heaven.
I know, people can be so stuborn.
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but you're expecting us to take as God's truths things He never said that have been disproven by science and medicine.
What verses that I give are irrelevant to the situations that are being talked about?
What has been disproven by science and medicine?
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How you think does NOT cause physiological changes in the brain. That was disproven long, long ago. I strongly suggest you do some research into the medical nature of of mental illness.
Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a reprobate mind. In verse 24, 26 He gave them up because of the things they thought, believed, and did.
Therefore it can be true for psychological ailments?
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At 7 and 8 she tried to commit suicide.
Sounds demonic. Not that she is possesed, but oppressed.
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What sins did a child of 4, 7 or 8 commit that caused her to have these thoughts and feelings? Would you answer that Diolectic please?
Are we not born in sin?
are we not sinners?
are we not in a fallen world?
is there no devil?
quote:
She's had a cat scan that showed her synapses are not firing correctly. There weren't years for these "bad thoughts" she supposedly had to reform her brain patterns. How would you explain that one? She also has an abnormal amount of neuronal atrophy. Would you say this is caused by her sinful nature? She also has less total gray matter volume than children without the disorder. Could you please provide scripture to refute that this is not a physical manifestation of her mental illness?
No, but may I offer some hope?
Joh 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
quote:
May God bless you in your contempt and ignorance of people who have mental illness. May you never suffer from it nor any of your family be put through the utter devestation that it can cause. Since you place all your faith in the process you've declared here for dealing with these types of issues may it always work for you. And if the time comes that this oft-times terrible burden afflicts you and yours, may you find a specialist that can lead you through it or a kind soul who has walked the way before you to help you through it. I know they'll show you the compassion, love and non-judgement you've failed to show those on this thread who deal with this every day of their lives.
Why would I go and pay someone that will not bring me to Jesus and Him only?
Matthew 6:22, 23 "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light:
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
The Eye could be translated as "view" and this darkness could also mean "obscurity".
This eye that we read of here is the view we have of the truth and how we view the reality.
Truth is light because as light reveals character. Jesus is presenting here an analysis of ones view of reality and there apparent belief system. The world is either bent on religion but eliminates Christ from it.
Nevertheless, the truth is what we read in the verses below.
Psalms 119:142 "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Therefore, when someone actually thinks that a lie, or “The Lie” is Truth as the verse above in Matthew 6:23, the term "the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" shows the extremity of that darkness.
Nevertheless, we have an admonition in this verse below.
2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the Day Dawn, and the Day Star arise in your hearts:"
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
_____________________________
We are created to be slaves with bonds of freedom. As a astronaut is free un-tethered to his life supporting space shuttle, so would we be free from God.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2006 4:04:34 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
Status: offline
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Diolectic ~ can you please stop making such long posts?
quote:
Becaus it does not deliver, it only covers up.
Becaus it does not heal, it only medicates.
Becaus it does not bring people to Jesus, it only makes them look to them selves. I have never been lead to believe that it heals ~ but without my meds, I would not be able to deal with reading my Bible and learning from it.
quote:
My brother is messed up because of "christian psycology" Interesting isn't it. I've only had secular doctors and nurses, but they've given me support that I need to concentrate and think things through for myself. Yet so many people knock secular treatment.
And just because your brother is messed up because of 'Christian psychology' doesn't mean that everyone in the world is going to be messed up because of psychology ~ be it Christian or secular.
_____________________________
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads!
My blog
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2006 8:02:18 AM
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peaceful2
Posts: 17
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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Diolectic,
Now it makes sense. Your brother was "messed up" by Christian Psychology. Anyone can be messed up by any kind of psychology if given an inept psychologist or psychistrist. I'll agree with you there. (And I don't mind your spelling, my husband's is atrocious too.)
BTW, I'm from a family of 11. Three of the boys are ordained ministers - One Southern Baptist, one Pentacostal and one another Protestant of some type. One has been married for 34 years and has two children. Both of whom had sex before marriage, have cheated on their spouses and have ended up divorced. One has been married and divorced 5 times. The other has been married and divorced twice. (These last two cannot have positions leading a church due to the divorces etc). So, for me at least, being an ordained minister means, well, not a whole lot. And it means absolutely nothing in the treatment of mental illness. It does not take an ordained minister to pray for someone with the illnesses.
And you can't have it both ways. If psychology won't treat MI successfully then that's your stand. But then you can't say psychology caused MI or a worsening of it. Either it works or it doesn't. Either it has the ability to alter someone's psyche or it doesn't.
My "oppressed" daughter attends church, always has. I've seen this little girl on her knees begging God to help her not feel the way she does. I've also seen hospitalization and meds help her to function. Some things she's accomplished with the help of the meds are:
Saved a woman's life who was in diabetic shock on the beach. I don't know many 10 year olds, mentally healthy or not, that could have done that.
Talked multiple kids out of cutting themselves, having sex and committing suicide. She was honored for this at a ceremony.
Spoke up for God around our neighborhood about why it's not ok to swear, lie to your parents or cheat at games. And now the kids actually don't do those things around her.
Of course God helped her too. But without the meds it wouldn't have been possible. How do we know? We took her off all meds for 3 months and she almost died again. We put her back on and she started to recover and do the wonderful things mentioned. Proof positive it works.
I noticed Jesus did not heal everyone in the Bible. Nor does He do so today. He also never said to not seek treatment for your illnesses. Not sure why you think going to Jesus is going to heal everyone. But don't worry, I'll pray for your eyes to be opened to the possibilties and the truth of the wonderful things God has created on the earth. He works through people, even sinners. Not just ordained ministers.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2006 11:00:02 AM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 456
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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Let me just say this, before I dust my shoes of this topic...
The absolutely worst, most dangerous, most ineffective (and in many cases most-anti-Christian) counseling I EVER had was ALWAYS without exception, "Christian Counseling". It has always been presented to me as some very fundamentalist, rather Pentecostal theory that generally follows the lines of your argument - that always wanted me to stop medication, stop therapy, do a few odd things (usually involving a weird fast followed by a deliverance service) and then left them in complete confusion why I'd gone through all their "steps" and managed to have another episode -usually a strong and dangerous one. Or it presents as some warm and fuzzy version of a very secular psychology (often loosely based in Jung) where they just sit around and remind me that "Jesus loves you". 
But seriously though, I realize you're an "ordained minister" who "does counseling" but I sincerely hope that you never have to counsel any one who honestly has a mental illness. You do realize that your position is dangerous and carries much liability don't you? And seriously, your theology is flawed, painfully, dangerously flawed. That passage you keep bringing up as proof that thoughts cause mental illness speaks of our propensity for sin and that it's kind of like stoking a fire - not that out thoughts make us nuts.
If you're around still, my question was serious, what "thoughts" caused my bipolar? Or what sins or whatever? I keep hearing you spout that, but no one has ever identified anything.
P.S. I'm not working any more, but I'm still listed as a "Pastor in good standing" with my denomination. So you're not the only one who knows the Bible or who's done any counseling.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2006 1:07:40 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10624
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a reprobate mind. In verse 24, 26 He gave them up because of the things they thought, believed, and did.
Therefore it can be true for psychological ailments?
No. This verse is talking about sin - not mental illness. Read the next several verses.
quote:
Have you just sought Jesus for who he is and not for anything else? Not asking for anything(like healing) Just enjoying His preasence? If you have, did any symptoms arise?
Psalm 16:11 you wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
I ask you, how can you have any Mental illness in His presence, when all you are there for is for HIM and HIM only?
Will you just try to come to HIM for nothing but His presence and love Him, thank Him for being GOD, and tell me if there is symptoms.
Yes, many, many, many times. My symptoms were still there. What was different was He gave me strength and comfort to deal with them. Didn't take them away - just comforted me.
quote:
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Phil 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Please explain these verses?
As I stated before.
quote:
Please, show me any Biblical support for your stand? And How do these verse I cite not aplye?
I'm not the one making assertions that mental illness is all about sin. I get my definitions of sin from Scripture. Where do you get them from? The outdated psychology you have been spouting?
quote:
quote:
I am not responsible for my mental health struggles.
Thinking that you just happend to get this disorder by no reason of yourself, like you are innocent.
were you not born in sin? were you never a sinner? How are you inosent?
Of course I was born into sin. What does that have to do with why I have spent my entire life struggling with a panic disorder? Scripture please!
quote:
quote:
I have felt nothing but comfort and peace and hope from God.
What is your hope from God?
How do you have comfort and pe | | |
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