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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 1:05:20 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
To be clear, I do understand that some will see the permission to remarry differently, and although I disagree I have no difficulty with those who hold to that view.
Some on this thread; however, have added even more and what they teach is truly unbiblical.
They teach that every remarried person will go to HELL unless they divorce or their previous spouse dies.
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
What they are teaching goes far beyond anything taught in Scripture, and it is that that I absolutely cannot support. They are just asking people to heap one sin on top of another, in the name of godliness???
You do have a point, and here is an article I found on the marriage bed forums, which is a conservative Christian website.
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/divorce.shtml
Anyway, but doesn't statistics show that 90% of divorces happen for reasons of bad communication? Surely, in these cases, the spouses who divorce and remarry are living in consistant adultery. Yes, Jesus did give exceptions of sexual immorality, and Paul for abandonment. But the abandonment part is if only the unbeliever leaves, not the believer.
My sister in law got divorced from her first husband because he broke both her legs. He was physically and verbally abusive. She then got married to my brother in law, and has 2 children by him, but she had none in the first marriage. In this case I would say divorce is allowed, because she could've been killed! But now she is happily married, and has been with my brother in law for 15+ years.
Anyway, like you said most divorces are unbiblical and sinful. I just want to stick up for marriage in a culture that allows for easy divorces.
But I will say this. Even for adultery, that does not give a couple the right to file for easy divorce. I believe adultery actually can be worked through. Abuse is a different case though, where it can actually be dangerous to the spouse and children, if children are involved.
quote:
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 1:36:35 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2934
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
To be clear, I do understand that some will see the permission to remarry differently, and although I disagree I have no difficulty with those who hold to that view.
Some on this thread; however, have added even more and what they teach is truly unbiblical.
They teach that every remarried person will go to HELL unless they divorce or their previous spouse dies.
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
What they are teaching goes far beyond anything taught in Scripture, and it is that that I absolutely cannot support. They are just asking people to heap one sin on top of another, in the name of godliness???
You do have a point, and here is an article I found on the marriage bed forums, which is a conservative Christian website.
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/divorce.shtml
Anyway, but doesn't statistics show that 90% of divorces happen for reasons of bad communication? Surely, in these cases, the spouses who divorce and remarry are living in consistant adultery. Yes, Jesus did give exceptions of sexual immorality, and Paul for abandonment. But the abandonment part is if only the unbeliever leaves, not the believer.
My sister in law got divorced from her first husband because he broke both her legs. He was physically and verbally abusive. She then got married to my brother in law, and has 2 children by him, but she had none in the first marriage. In this case I would say divorce is allowed, because she could've been killed! But now she is happily married, and has been with my brother in law for 15+ years.
Anyway, like you said most divorces are unbiblical and sinful. I just want to stick up for marriage in a culture that allows for easy divorces.
But I will say this. Even for adultery, that does not give a couple the right to file for easy divorce. I believe adultery actually can be worked through. Abuse is a different case though, where it can actually be dangerous to the spouse and children, if children are involved.
quote:
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved, I don't think that abuse is an automatic reason for divorce any more than I would believe that adultery is an automatic reason for divorce. I have seen God work miracles in marriages where there has been abuse, adultery, or even both. It is not beyond God's ability to restore even the worst of situations. From a Christian perspective, I believe divorce is something that should happen only when no other option can be sought. One example would be when a spouse sinfully chooses o have an affair, leave the marriage, and marry the person they were involved with. Stopping them is often beyond anyones control.
One of the things I do reject is the idea that a remarriage (even those that were clearly sinful when they began) is ever a continuous act of adultery; when remarriage is entered in on unbibilcal grounds, it is the act of remarriage in those cases that is adulterous, and not the continuous state of the marriage. Repentance is always required, but another divorce is never the right answer, and scripturally speaking returning to a former spouse isn't even an option after a remarriage.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 3:29:44 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
To be clear, I do understand that some will see the permission to remarry differently, and although I disagree I have no difficulty with those who hold to that view.
Some on this thread; however, have added even more and what they teach is truly unbiblical.
They teach that every remarried person will go to HELL unless they divorce or their previous spouse dies.
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
What they are teaching goes far beyond anything taught in Scripture, and it is that that I absolutely cannot support. They are just asking people to heap one sin on top of another, in the name of godliness???
You do have a point, and here is an article I found on the marriage bed forums, which is a conservative Christian website.
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/divorce.shtml
Anyway, but doesn't statistics show that 90% of divorces happen for reasons of bad communication? Surely, in these cases, the spouses who divorce and remarry are living in consistant adultery. Yes, Jesus did give exceptions of sexual immorality, and Paul for abandonment. But the abandonment part is if only the unbeliever leaves, not the believer.
My sister in law got divorced from her first husband because he broke both her legs. He was physically and verbally abusive. She then got married to my brother in law, and has 2 children by him, but she had none in the first marriage. In this case I would say divorce is allowed, because she could've been killed! But now she is happily married, and has been with my brother in law for 15+ years.
Anyway, like you said most divorces are unbiblical and sinful. I just want to stick up for marriage in a culture that allows for easy divorces.
But I will say this. Even for adultery, that does not give a couple the right to file for easy divorce. I believe adultery actually can be worked through. Abuse is a different case though, where it can actually be dangerous to the spouse and children, if children are involved.
quote:
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved, I don't think that abuse is an automatic reason for divorce any more than I would believe that adultery is an automatic reason for divorce. I have seen God work miracles in marriages where there has been abuse, adultery, or even both. It is not beyond God's ability to restore even the worst of situations. From a Christian perspective, I believe divorce is something that should happen only when no other option can be sought. One example would be when a spouse sinfully chooses o have an affair, leave the marriage, and marry the person they were involved with. Stopping them is often beyond anyones control.
One of the things I do reject is the idea that a remarriage (even those that were clearly sinful when they began) is ever a continuous act of adultery; when remarriage is entered in on unbibilcal grounds, it is the act of remarriage in those cases that is adulterous, and not the continuous state of the marriage. Repentance is always required, but another divorce is never the right answer, and scripturally speaking returning to a former spouse isn't even an option after a remarriage.
"While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved"
"[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
"If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
"If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2Ti 2:11-13
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
"For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1Pe 2:19-21, see 22-25
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
"But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." 1Pe 3:1-6
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully...
"And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
"Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
"For [it is] better, quote:
[b]if the will of God be so, that ye suffer [/b] for well doing, than for evil doing.
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit..." 1Pe 3:13-18
"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?...I speak to your shame...Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?" 1Cor.6:1-8
Don't try to read to much into why I quote these passages, just read and reread and reread them...meditate upon them, and I think that anyone will at the least be conflicted within themselves as to what is to be the true and godly response of the believe to them regarding all this talk about 'abuse'.
One may perhaps leave or flee to escape the real threat of death...but to then justify divorce and to marry another when no such liberty has been granted is folly. And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 3:49:05 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9470
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
One may perhaps leave or flee to escape the real threat of death.
May? Perhaps? real threat of death?
You believe that a threat of death only "may perhaps" be a reason to leave?
You don't think that two broken legs indicates a need to leave? You believe that those verses tell women to stay and be physically abused by one who vowed to cherish them?
If that isn't what you believe, could you please explain your choice of words in the statement that I quoted?
quote:
And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?
And could you please clarify what you mean by this. It sounds to me as though you are saying that the beatings are permissible and should be endured as long as there isn't an immediate threat of death.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 3:56:48 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2934
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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While I do understand and can respect the arguments for having a spouse remain separated and not remarry in the case of abuse, I DO NOT RESPECT ANY ARGUMENT THAT ADVOCATES FOR A SPOUSE TO REMAIN IN AN ABUSIVE SITUATION AND SUFFER FOR CHRIST!
The verses you quoted are just plain taken out of context, and the idea that you appear to be advocating is ungodly and heretical!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
To be clear, I do understand that some will see the permission to remarry differently, and although I disagree I have no difficulty with those who hold to that view.
Some on this thread; however, have added even more and what they teach is truly unbiblical.
They teach that every remarried person will go to HELL unless they divorce or their previous spouse dies.
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
What they are teaching goes far beyond anything taught in Scripture, and it is that that I absolutely cannot support. They are just asking people to heap one sin on top of another, in the name of godliness???
You do have a point, and here is an article I found on the marriage bed forums, which is a conservative Christian website.
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/divorce.shtml
Anyway, but doesn't statistics show that 90% of divorces happen for reasons of bad communication? Surely, in these cases, the spouses who divorce and remarry are living in consistant adultery. Yes, Jesus did give exceptions of sexual immorality, and Paul for abandonment. But the abandonment part is if only the unbeliever leaves, not the believer.
My sister in law got divorced from her first husband because he broke both her legs. He was physically and verbally abusive. She then got married to my brother in law, and has 2 children by him, but she had none in the first marriage. In this case I would say divorce is allowed, because she could've been killed! But now she is happily married, and has been with my brother in law for 15+ years.
Anyway, like you said most divorces are unbiblical and sinful. I just want to stick up for marriage in a culture that allows for easy divorces.
But I will say this. Even for adultery, that does not give a couple the right to file for easy divorce. I believe adultery actually can be worked through. Abuse is a different case though, where it can actually be dangerous to the spouse and children, if children are involved.
quote:
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved, I don't think that abuse is an automatic reason for divorce any more than I would believe that adultery is an automatic reason for divorce. I have seen God work miracles in marriages where there has been abuse, adultery, or even both. It is not beyond God's ability to restore even the worst of situations. From a Christian perspective, I believe divorce is something that should happen only when no other option can be sought. One example would be when a spouse sinfully chooses o have an affair, leave the marriage, and marry the person they were involved with. Stopping them is often beyond anyones control.
One of the things I do reject is the idea that a remarriage (even those that were clearly sinful when they began) is ever a continuous act of adultery; when remarriage is entered in on unbibilcal grounds, it is the act of remarriage in those cases that is adulterous, and not the continuous state of the marriage. Repentance is always required, but another divorce is never the right answer, and scripturally speaking returning to a former spouse isn't even an option after a remarriage.
"While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved"
"[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
"If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
"If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2Ti 2:11-13
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
"For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1Pe 2:19-21, see 22-25
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
"But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." 1Pe 3:1-6
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully...
"And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
"Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
"For [it is] better, quote:
[b]if the will of God be so, that ye suffer [/b] for well doing, than for evil doing.
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit..." 1Pe 3:13-18
"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?...I speak to your shame...Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?" 1Cor.6:1-8
Don't try to read to much into why I quote these passages, just read and reread and reread them...meditate upon them, and I think that anyone will at the least be conflicted within themselves as to what is to be the true and godly response of the believe to them regarding all this talk about 'abuse'.
One may perhaps leave or flee to escape the real threat of death...but to then justify divorce and to marry another when no such liberty has been granted is folly. And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 7:36:00 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 215
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
To be clear, I do understand that some will see the permission to remarry differently, and although I disagree I have no difficulty with those who hold to that view.
Some on this thread; however, have added even more and what they teach is truly unbiblical.
They teach that every remarried person will go to HELL unless they divorce or their previous spouse dies.
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
What they are teaching goes far beyond anything taught in Scripture, and it is that that I absolutely cannot support. They are just asking people to heap one sin on top of another, in the name of godliness???
You do have a point, and here is an article I found on the marriage bed forums, which is a conservative Christian website.
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/divorce.shtml
Anyway, but doesn't statistics show that 90% of divorces happen for reasons of bad communication? Surely, in these cases, the spouses who divorce and remarry are living in consistant adultery. Yes, Jesus did give exceptions of sexual immorality, and Paul for abandonment. But the abandonment part is if only the unbeliever leaves, not the believer.
My sister in law got divorced from her first husband because he broke both her legs. He was physically and verbally abusive. She then got married to my brother in law, and has 2 children by him, but she had none in the first marriage. In this case I would say divorce is allowed, because she could've been killed! But now she is happily married, and has been with my brother in law for 15+ years.
Anyway, like you said most divorces are unbiblical and sinful. I just want to stick up for marriage in a culture that allows for easy divorces.
But I will say this. Even for adultery, that does not give a couple the right to file for easy divorce. I believe adultery actually can be worked through. Abuse is a different case though, where it can actually be dangerous to the spouse and children, if children are involved.
quote:
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved, I don't think that abuse is an automatic reason for divorce any more than I would believe that adultery is an automatic reason for divorce. I have seen God work miracles in marriages where there has been abuse, adultery, or even both. It is not beyond God's ability to restore even the worst of situations. From a Christian perspective, I believe divorce is something that should happen only when no other option can be sought. One example would be when a spouse sinfully chooses o have an affair, leave the marriage, and marry the person they were involved with. Stopping them is often beyond anyones control.
One of the things I do reject is the idea that a remarriage (even those that were clearly sinful when they began) is ever a continuous act of adultery; when remarriage is entered in on unbibilcal grounds, it is the act of remarriage in those cases that is adulterous, and not the continuous state of the marriage. Repentance is always required, but another divorce is never the right answer, and scripturally speaking returning to a former spouse isn't even an option after a remarriage.
"While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved"
"[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
"If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
"If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2Ti 2:11-13
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
"For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1Pe 2:19-21, see 22-25
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
"But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." 1Pe 3:1-6
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully...
"And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
"Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
"For [it is] better, quote:
[b]if the will of God be so, that ye suffer [/b] for well doing, than for evil doing.
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit..." 1Pe 3:13-18
"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?...I speak to your shame...Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?" 1Cor.6:1-8
Don't try to read to much into why I quote these passages, just read and reread and reread them...meditate upon them, and I think that anyone will at the least be conflicted within themselves as to what is to be the true and godly response of the believe to them regarding all this talk about 'abuse'.
One may perhaps leave or flee to escape the real threat of death...but to then justify divorce and to marry another when no such liberty has been granted is folly. And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?
If you truly believe that someone who is being or has been abused should stay or go back to that situation, please refrain from counseling any married couples.
I truly feel sorry for someone who would advocate that based on the scriptures you took out of context.
< Message edited by PatHarris -- 7/11/2008 7:50:52 PM >
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 8:09:54 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1173
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
If the above verses allowed for remarriage why would the Apostle Paul state these things.
Romans 7:2-3
2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an
adulteress.(ESV)
In this verse, the context had nothing to do with marriage, but used the example of marriage to explain how we as Christians relate to the Law. Paul was not intending to explain every detail of marriage in this verse, but every detail of how Christians are to understand the Law. Looking to this verse as complete statement by Paul on his view of marriage is taking this verse out of context, and stands in contrast to what he did say in 1 Co. 7 where he was speaking specifically about the marriage vow.
First of all the context has everything to do with marriage, because marriage only being dissolvable by death is the whole pretext of his analogy to teach about the necessity of Christ's death to free us from the letter of the Law. If this pretext were not fully true, then his whole case fails and we cannot assume that Christ's death was necessary either. An analogy only works if you begin with a true and well known pretext.
If for example I said "just as pigs can fly high in the sky, so too will Christ return in the clouds someday." My analogy would cause more confusion than clarity, and people would wonder whether I was saying He is going to return or that He isn't because my pretext is obviously false. In fact, they would likely think I was being sarcastic and actually don't believe He will return based on my false presupposition.
So too, if Paul didn't actually mean to say that only death dissolves a marriage and that any subsequent relationship while a spouse lives is adultery, then people would have to wonder if Christ's death actually freed us from the letter of the Law or if He died needlessly. His analogy not only would have failed, but causes more confusion than anything. I however believe that he really did mean what He said, and said exactly what he meant, and that his analogy was proper and true.
Secondly, He did reiterate this point in 1 Corinthians 7 which we both agree is about marriage and nothing else:
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
quote:
quote:
1 Corinthians 7:10-11
10To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband 11(but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife. (ESV)
Apparently marriage is binding until death. Even though you may meet the biblical grounds for divorce, such as adultery, the Bible does not state that you are allowed to remarry.
In this same passage Paul gives the instructions to those who are abandoned by an unbelieving spouse, and there he says they are no longer bound to that marriage. This happens to be the only circumstance in which the early church permitted remarriage, but in this case even they acknowledged that remarriage was allowed. The verse you quoted is exactly how those who separate for unbiblical reasons are to conduct themselves i.e. they are not to divorce, or remarry.
It doesn't say anything about not being bound to the marriage, and in fact in verse 39 says exactly the opposite. It only says that the believer is not bound to dwell with an unbeliever who refuses to dwell with them because God has called us to peace. That doesn't however negate the fact that he just said the only options for the believer are to remain unmarried or else reconcile, and what he said afterward that only death dissolves the marriage bond and frees us to remarry.
quote:
quote:
Jesus even said those who marry a divorced person has committed adultery.
Matthew 5:31-32
31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.(ESV)
Even though Christ did say you are allowed to divorce because of sexual immorality, he does not say you can go ahead and remarry, actually, quite the opposite, because then you would be committing sexual immorality.
Not as I read the exception stated by Jesus i.e. those who divorce for reasons other than sexual immorality were prohibited from remarriage, not everyone.
That's not what the text says. It says that "whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery" without exception, which is consistent with what He said in the other two Gospels:
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
If your opinion were correct then Jesus would be teaching falsely to those He was speaking to, but obviously He is correct and you are not.
quote:
My personal view is that most divorces are unbiblical, and most couples should never be allowed to remarry, but I cannot say that is true of all because both Jesus and Paul acknowledge cases where divorce itself is permitted, and Paul specifically states that in such a divorce a spouse is no longer bound by the marriage.
Paul never said that anyone isn't bound to a marriage after a divorce, and in fact both he and Jesus specifically said they are, and are engaging in extramarital affairs by remarrying, which proves that neither of them believed that divorce dissolved a marriage, or else adultery couldn't be an issue:
Romans 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
quote:
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
First of all; Do you keep the Mosaic Laws? That provision for hard hearted Jews was very specific and didn't apply to fully married couples, and doesn't apply to anyone today. If you desire to use the Old Covenant Law to chastise those who wrong you, then you cannot demand the grace of Jesus Christ for your own transgressions. You have to choose which covenant you are under, and if it is the Old you must keep the whole Law.
SealedEternal
< Message edited by SealedEternal -- 7/12/2008 9:05:21 AM >
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 8:20:42 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1173
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
If you truly believe that someone who is being or has been abused should stay or go back to that situation, please refrain from counseling any married couples.
I truly feel sorry for someone who would advocate that based on the scriptures you took out of context.
Does that mean we shouldn't forgive someone seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:22), turn the other cheek(Matthew 5:39), love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44)? We should just harden our hearts and tell someone they have committed the unpardonable sin by wronging us, and therefore deserve no forgiveness, grace, love, or compassion even if they repent and beg for mercy? Is that what Christ would do?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 8:26:59 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
In this same passage Paul gives the instructions to those who are abandoned by an unbelieving spouse, and there he says they are no longer bound to that marriage.
You have just changed and added to the Word of God... he did NOT say "no longer bound to that marriage". He said "not under bondage." That's IT. And if you look at the original greek word for "bound" in verse 39, you can see that is not the same word as the one you are using. They are both not referring to the marriage bond.
Furthermore, Jesus himself refutes your claim because he says "EVERYONE who divorces and marries another commits adultery." The only way Luke 16:18 can be true is if your theory is false because the man who adandoned his wife is apparently STILL bound to her- which means she is bound back.
There is no WAY anyone can know FOR SURE, if someone is an unbeliever... seems kinda silly that if your BELIEVING spouse leaves you, you are stuck- but if your unbelieving spouse leaves you just got lucky because you are free.
There is no such thing as one party being able to be freed from the marriage bond and not the other. And your theory that both parties are free is quite troubling because that means anyone can just walk out of a marriage and they are free. That means one can divorce for ANY reason, but that's not what Jesus said. He said there were NO reasons for divorce.
There would be no reason for the command to remain unmarried if this applied only to the guilty party because one cannot be free to remarry and not the other. If this applies to "unbiblical divorces" let's get real here... there are VERY few that are mutual decisions. MOST would fall under abandonment or adultery. His command to remain unmarried is very clear... it says TO THE MARRIED (all of them)- he does not clarify, except for adultery or abandonment. That is adding to the Word.
Your claim that it is not continuous adultery is not supported by scripture. There is overwhelming scripture proving that it is continuous adultery. The mere fact that scripture proves divorce doesn't end the marriage...
In Romans Paul is referring to the law of marriage and he repeats exactly what he said in Corinthians "a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives" and says he is speaking to those who KNOW THE LAW... He is making an analogy that shows we are released from a marriage at death. And goes on to say "SO THEN... if while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she is called an adulteress... but if her husband is dead, she is not an adulteress even though she is married to another man." He is quite clear here... the only exception he gives in which she will not be an adulteress if she remarries is if her husband is DEAD. Read this verse very slowly over and over... you will see that he is saying "a woman is bound to her husband AS LONG AS HE LIVES... which means that if she marries another while he still lives- than she is still BOUND TO HER FIRST HUSBAND even though she appears to be married to another.
The lengths you have gone to explain this verse away is very disconcerting.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 9:36:19 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9470
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
If you truly believe that someone who is being or has been abused should stay or go back to that situation, please refrain from counseling any married couples.
I truly feel sorry for someone who would advocate that based on the scriptures you took out of context.
Does that mean we shouldn't forgive someone seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:22), turn the other cheek(Matthew 5:39), love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44)? We should just harden our hearts and tell someone they have committed the unpardonable sin by wronging us, and therefore deserve no forgiveness, grace, love, or compassion even if they repent and beg for mercy? Is that what Christ would do?
SealedEternal
Forgiving someone for abusing you and putting yourself back into an abusive situation are two very different things. We can love and pray for someone without allowing them to abuse us.
And in the verses and commentary presented there was no mention of repentance or begging for mercy. There was only this
quote:
And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?
There's just no way to make that kind of counsel acceptable and you do your credibility damage by trying to do so.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 10:09:18 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 215
Joined: 1/27/2006
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sealedeternal
Forgiveness can be given to an abuser, without being foolish enough to go back to a bad situation.
Christ would never ask anyone to go back to an abuser.
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/12/2008 6:57:31 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2936
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
I know we aren't supposed to talk about our personal situation but I used to say this verse to myself when I was with my first partner.
Let's just say it isn't my partner who is bringing the terror into the home anymore. God will let someone know when they are to leave, I doubt we are called to be martyrs to death in our families.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/12/2008 10:11:11 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
God will let someone know when they are to leave, I doubt we are called to be martyrs to death in our families.
No one here has said that or even remotely said someone should stay with someone who is physically abusing them or in other extreme cases. Somehow the other side always turns this around. The point is we are still called to remain faithful to our vows to a person who OBVIOUSLY needs JESUS. Even if we have to remove ourselves from a situation until repentance occurs.
There are MANY testimonies of people who were radically transformed by Christ... and marriages were saved. It is not for us to judge whether someone is beyond hope. There is always HOPE... if you believe Christ rose from the dead, than you believe that. I do not believe in the moving on mentality... nor do I see it anywhere in scripture whether one is separated or not.
We should have compassion for that person just as Jesus would... "forgive them Father they know not what they are doing."
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/12/2008 10:32:44 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Could you please provide scripture that supports this?
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/12/2008 10:45:02 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9470
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
No one here has said that or even remotely said someone should stay with someone who is physically abusing them or in other extreme cases. Somehow the other side always turns this around. The point is we are still called to remain faithful to our vows to a person who OBVIOUSLY needs JESUS. Even if we have to remove ourselves from a situation until repentance occurs.
Excuse me???? Someone most certainly has. p.progress first quotes a statement from benelchi in red and then produces verse after verse and finishes with
" Don't try to read to much into why I quote these passages, just read and reread and reread them...meditate upon them, and I think that anyone will at the least be conflicted within themselves as to what is to be the true and godly response of the believe to them regarding all this talk about 'abuse'.
One may perhaps leave or flee to escape the real threat of death...but to then justify divorce and to marry another when no such liberty has been granted is folly. And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?"
There is no ambiguity here. This is a blatant misuse of God's word to tell people that they must stay in abusive situations. No one has to turn this around, it's already twisted. And you and sealedeternal are trying to spin it and justify it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The idea that the marriage covenant is completely unbreakable is difficult to reconcile with Scripture, especially Due. 24:1-4 where a spouse who has remarried is specifically prohibited from ever returning to their former spouse. How can such a prohibition exist if the covenant is unbreakable?
To be clear, I do understand that some will see the permission to remarry differently, and although I disagree I have no difficulty with those who hold to that view.
Some on this thread; however, have added even more and what they teach is truly unbiblical.
They teach that every remarried person will go to HELL unless they divorce or their previous spouse dies.
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
What they are teaching goes far beyond anything taught in Scripture, and it is that that I absolutely cannot support. They are just asking people to heap one sin on top of another, in the name of godliness???
You do have a point, and here is an article I found on the marriage bed forums, which is a conservative Christian website.
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/divorce.shtml
Anyway, but doesn't statistics show that 90% of divorces happen for reasons of bad communication? Surely, in these cases, the spouses who divorce and remarry are living in consistant adultery. Yes, Jesus did give exceptions of sexual immorality, and Paul for abandonment. But the abandonment part is if only the unbeliever leaves, not the believer.
My sister in law got divorced from her first husband because he broke both her legs. He was physically and verbally abusive. She then got married to my brother in law, and has 2 children by him, but she had none in the first marriage. In this case I would say divorce is allowed, because she could've been killed! But now she is happily married, and has been with my brother in law for 15+ years.
Anyway, like you said most divorces are unbiblical and sinful. I just want to stick up for marriage in a culture that allows for easy divorces.
But I will say this. Even for adultery, that does not give a couple the right to file for easy divorce. I believe adultery actually can be worked through. Abuse is a different case though, where it can actually be dangerous to the spouse and children, if children are involved.
quote:
They ask those who have remarried to divorce and return to their former spouse (something prohibited in Scripture!)
It all depends on the reason of the divorce. If the reason is communication problems, the person who remarried is living in consistent adultery, because in God's eyes, the marriage covenant is still there with the first spouse, and has not been broken.
Where, let's say for the example of abuse, that is a different story.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved, I don't think that abuse is an automatic reason for divorce any more than I would believe that adultery is an automatic reason for divorce. I have seen God work miracles in marriages where there has been abuse, adultery, or even both. It is not beyond God's ability to restore even the worst of situations. From a Christian perspective, I believe divorce is something that should happen only when no other option can be sought. One example would be when a spouse sinfully chooses o have an affair, leave the marriage, and marry the person they were involved with. Stopping them is often beyond anyones control.
One of the things I do reject is the idea that a remarriage (even those that were clearly sinful when they began) is ever a continuous act of adultery; when remarriage is entered in on unbibilcal grounds, it is the act of remarriage in those cases that is adulterous, and not the continuous state of the marriage. Repentance is always required, but another divorce is never the right answer, and scripturally speaking returning to a former spouse isn't even an option after a remarriage.
"While I do think that safety has to be put first in any case of abuse, even if that means separating or getting the police involved"
"[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
"If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
"If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2Ti 2:11-13
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
"For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1Pe 2:19-21, see 22-25
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
"But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." 1Pe 3:1-6
"Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
"Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
"For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully...
"And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
"Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
"For [it is] better, quote:
[b]if the will of God be so, that ye suffer [/b] for well doing, than for evil doing.
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit..." 1Pe 3:13-18
"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?...I speak to your shame...Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?" 1Cor.6:1-8
Don't try to read to much into why I quote these passages, just read and reread and reread them...meditate upon them, and I think that anyone will at the least be conflicted within themselves as to what is to be the true and godly response of the believe to them regarding all this talk about 'abuse'.
One may perhaps leave or flee to escape the real threat of death...but to then justify divorce and to marry another when no such liberty has been granted is folly. And what of those who fail to return to their own husband, if or when the possible threat of death is gone? Will they accept that suffering will still be there to endure?
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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