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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 9:48:45 AM
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alaska
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There is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death.
Jesus plainly said that MANY would come and say Lord, Lord, apparently believing that they should be allowed in and he will say "I know you not". Also in Matt. 25, the rejected ask the question "when" did they do those things that made them worthy of rejection? They were in darkness while as they believed they were in the light. Just like those trusting the "Christian" leaders who in this area of understanding cause them to err such as Hegee and Graham and others.
Do ye not therefore err because you know not the scriptures nor the power of God?
Mark 10:2-12 Luke 16:18 1 Cor. 7:39 mean exactly what they plainly say. Seeing that the interpretation of 5:32 and 19:9 that many hold today contradicts those verses is evidence in itself that that interpretation is a lie.
< Message edited by alaska -- 3/9/2006 9:52:35 AM >
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 10:35:26 AM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
Mark 10:2-12 Luke 16:18 1 Cor. 7:39 mean exactly what they plainly say. Seeing that the interpretation of 5:32 and 19:9
Mark 10: 11-12
11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Not that Jesus has addressed the ones who divorced wrongly.
Matthew 5: 31-32
31"It was said, ' WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Note exception for sexual immorality. But Jesus was also clearly addressing the putting away of the spouse. Not premarital, because Jesus would have specified clearly and not used complicated language. The divorced woman (and I looked back to later posts on greek, but I note that I am not a greek scholar, just a researcher) was apoluo - put away without certificate, not apostasion - divorced with a certficate.
Matthew 19:9
9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Again dealing with the one that is divorcing, again giving the exception for sexual immorality.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 12:45:05 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hunterjumper777
Not that Jesus has addressed the ones who divorced wrongly.
Yes, just as He did in Mt. 19:9----the innocent woman is prohibited from remarrying........unless she and her new "husband" want to commit adultery in the sight of the Lord. In Him, Cindy
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 1:12:42 PM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
Yes, just as He did in Mt. 19:9----the innocent woman is prohibited from remarrying........unless she and her new "husband" want to commit adultery in the sight of the Lord. In Him, Cindy
There is question as to whether that clause in KJV using the newer greek texts is an addition.
The older greek texts that some of the more modern translations use do not have that clause.
Remarriage is not the topic in this thread.... (easy mistake to do - I had to edit my last to remove that reference LOL!)
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 2:04:14 PM
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alaska
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It has been overwhelmingly proven that the textual critics who make such claims that things were added later is foolishness. The truth is that omissions occurred in some of the early texts and these texts were rediscovered and made popular in the late 1800's. The KJV is taken from the majority texts which does not omit what the NIV NASB and others omit.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 2:13:36 PM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
It has been overwhelmingly proven that the textual critics who make such claims that things were added later is foolishness.
I don't know about that....
If there is question about a passage between two source texts that caused as deep a division as this one is apparently doing, would it not be better to take where they agree and not where they do not?
I have seen several critics on both sides. I have not seen "overwhelming evidence", just sources that are used to "justify" their side.
How can omissions occur in earlier texts, but no additions occur in later texts?
I do not wish to engage in the translation debate, but I think in cases like this what is agreed upon between the two should be what is focused on.
I know that you will not agree.
That is OK.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2006 12:45:00 AM
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alaska
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We are not supposed to turn this into a translation debate but the fact the bibles differ so radically, it is difficult to not refer to the major differences in translations based on texts that apparently had been edited.
There is in fact overwhelming evidence that the text the KJV is taken from is extremely dependable and trustworthy as a legitimate representation of what the authors actually wrote. It is not an issue of what the translators translated so much as it is that the various translations were taken from differing texts some of which have been shown to have been deliberately corrupted by arrogant early textual critics. But either way, I don't know of any texts that actually use the word adultery in the exception statement. Even the corrupted Greek texts (as opposed to the uncorrupted Greek texts) kept the usage of the word for fornication. And in Greek, the word for fornication is used as it is used in English. It can be used to specify the premarital sin. The word adultery cannot do that.
< Message edited by alaska -- 3/12/2006 12:48:14 AM >
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2006 10:49:52 PM
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Cascsiany
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Is divorce acceptible when domestic violence is involved?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2006 11:15:42 PM
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blessednw
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I think there is biblical mention of seperation, and I believe it is implied because something is 'unlivable' such as a horrible husband (abuse, neglect, etc.)
But it says that she should not seperate, but if she does, she shall remain unmarried or be reconciled.
So it is not towards divorce but with the hope of reconciling or remaining celibate/unmarried.
This is so wise, I see now.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2006 11:19:57 PM
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Cascsiany
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Well another thing is she is blind and her husband threatened her with a gun.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2006 11:30:13 PM
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blessednw
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Yes Tim2
My more biblical church would not promote the one who was unwilling to reconcile, and would lovingly guide him/her through a restoration process, no matter how long it took, and if he/she continued in sin and unwillingness to obey the Lord's commands, they would continue to pray. One of our elders parents were reconciled after 11 years of seperation.
I cannot wait until more and more restored couples who have been through great devastation, pain and healing and restoration will speak up and let the church know about God's desire and willingness to restore marriages and families.
We have taken the teaching on divorce and turned things around so divorce is our "right" and on demand and we get to decide just how long (we will put up with)or how deep our spouse's rebellion against the Lord qualifies for "our divorce"(reaction to them).
I think the general revelation of scripture is 'don't try to get out of marriage, but take your vows seriously' Also, I think the general revelation of scripture is to not take revenge on those who ill use you since revenge is the Lord's. Too often we divorce out of revenge, to get even and to make them pay with consequences. I had this attitude at one time, though I was blind to it at the time. I can admit now that I exercised my 'right' and if I wanted to, I could 'prove' my 'right' with the Bible. BUT, I have been shown by the precious Holy Spirit and the beauty of the Word, that my attitude was wrong. I was not the executor of justice, but shouldve been praying for my spouse. I was proud, and did not see my self righteous attitude, thinking my husband was doing all the bad, but I was the 'innocent' party! how deceived I was.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/20/2006 12:14:40 AM
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abcd123
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quote:
Is divorce acceptible when domestic violence is involved?
I think I'd go so far as to say it would be sick and unacceptable not to, at the very least get a restraining order and seek a sepration, because so frequently staying means the abuse continues. It's not a healthy choice for a woman or children, and it lets the abuser feel he can "get away with it" when no one should think that.
I know a lot of women who have been abused will have issues with trusting a man again, and there are so many divorce situations that I don't know what my stance is about remarriage. I need to look into things much, much more and pray about it if it should ever become an issue in my life. But I do think this verse (But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. - Matthew 5:31) which states marital unfaithfulness, which can typically be thought of as sex, can also refer to more than that. There are so many other ways to be unfaithful.
I would leave a man for abuse (of me or my children) before I would for cheating.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2006 12:14:03 PM
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alaska
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Separation is not necessarily a sin. In the case of self preservation, etc it is acceptable to God just as fleeing from persecution for the sake of self preservation is acceptable.
A separation is not a declaration that the husband and wife are no longer husband and wife.
Divorce is such a declaration and no Christian can concede to divorce without denying their Lord. It is a form of spitting in His face to get a divorce or to sign the Christ denying papers agreeing to the antichrist statements that the husband and wife are no longer husband and wife.
Many pastors are going to hell for this very thing. Legalising for the Christian the spitting in Jesus' face and calling that being blessed.
Sex or remarriage after either a separation or divorce is adultery.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2006 5:44:50 PM
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blessednw
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Lindsay,
Yes the threatening of a blind person with a gun is horrible and definitely evil. Seperation seems wise, if not life saving.
****************************************************************
I think one of the problems we are dealing with in the church today, is declaring, "okay, THIS is worthy of divorce" when really we could not get the clear backing of scripture on that. (Although we sure try!) I believe that seperation is not the best but is indicated in scripture that some women will do so(safety was an issue then too), but that Paul said to remain unmarried(whether or not the offending, abusive one gets a divorce, etc.) or be reconciled.
As far as someone ruining credit or finances, a legal seperation provides for this problem while the God fearing one can continue in commitment to the Lord to their end of the covenant.
In other words, there is more to point to hope for change ( in the scriptures), which would truly be a miracle, or the grace to remain celibate while the one who seperated or was left waits on God. Not 'stopping life' or thinking that life is over if you don't have someone new, but that scripture seems to indicate God really did not want us to take the covenantal commitment lightly and to keep the open door to God changing a heart. God is all about redemption of broken hearts and broken family bonds. We just have not had the faith to believe for people we are fed up with. It is we who have given up on the power of God, and imposed our own limitations on our covenantal promise.
Also, through compromise in this area, marriage is less sacred and binding to our kids. They are increasingly afraid and cynical in the seemingly unrealistic idea that they will have one mate for a lifetime. Many kids of this generation are lamenting that there are 'no good men' that are unselfish, or that there are no godly women that are not looking for weath and prestige. Marriage has been seen as something to avoid, to be suspicious about, to hope for but be disillusioned about. Just listen to some younger people's conversations about these matters.
I believe there is a rising tide in the body of believers to begin to believe that God can and does want to change hearts. After all, what is the Great Commission of the Church anyway if it isn't to see many hardened sinners become convicted by the truth of the Gospel and to turn from their wicked ways ?If our Lord can save whole people groups who were previously murderers, cannibals, polygymists, occultists, etc. can he change a spouse's hardened heart?
We have truly given the enemy too much power in our lives if we consider that if our mates choose evil(neglect, adultery, contempt, power and control) towards us, it gives us a 'loophole' or a way out of our end of the commitment we made in covenant with the Lord. We are agreeing with the devil by saying, "yep, that errant spouse is beyond forgiveness or restoration with me. They are beyond hope" We can miss out on a huge miracle and heart change for ourselves that would strengthen us and show us a measure of 'the sufferings of Christ'
One of the things that has changed my persepective is to read many many testimonies of marriages that God so beautifully restored, after adultery, after divorce even, when one of them decided to treat the whole thing in the perspective that their spouse had become prodigal in their relationship with the Lord and with them, and to pray for them to be restored to the Lord and to them. It has been convicting to me to read about how God changed the "innocent" one or the one wanting to be reconciled with an irreconcilable mate, and gave them faith, the strength of commitment to family and family line, prayer partners, and some real character growth for themselves. I can tell by some of the posts that you have heard similar testimonies.
Revelation says we will overcome by the word of our testimony and the blood of the Lamb. The Lamb's blood has provided forgiveness of sins, so we can stand in the gap for others and we will testify of His goodness to us even when great devastation has come into our families. Lord keep us from our love growing cold for You or for our families..Amen
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2006 6:41:57 PM
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soundDRwife
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In my studying of the Bible as to what God thinks about marriage HE Hates it. I think he is very clear in his word unless there is fornafication there is no need to divorce. I even went a little further to read on the subject from other sound doctrine preachers that explained it even better. I agree with them that if you do divorce then you should stay single or reconcile with your spouse.Because the Bible is clear on that too. If two people divorce they should stay single or reconcile with each other.The bible even talks about is one spouse becomes saved and the other isn't if that spouse that not is content still being married you stay with them cause you will be their witness.But if the spouse chooses to leave after the other spouse has become saved then let them leave but instead of remarrying and commiting adultry stay single and keep praying that one day that spouse will return.If they don't stay single.I have read over and over the bible and that seems to be what it says everytime. now if a person does divorce I think he can still minister maybe not as effectedly if they hadn't but they could still minister. As long as they have asked God for forgiveness.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2006 12:10:37 AM
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hjohnson
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My problem is very personal. I am the oldest child in a family, now 55, and my baby brother, who is 14 years younger, is a current pastor. He has been divorced once and is now remarried, having found his current wife on-line and only seen her once before they were married (do you believe in arranged marriages?) and gotten remarried at his current church. He practically drove his first wife away. Once when I was visiting, he and a male friend and I were together when his wife came home. He bullingly and sneeringly called out to her something about, "the devil is home" or some such, and made no attempt to greet her lovingly. I was shocked, and almost thought that I had mis-heard, but no. (His friend chuckled.)
He has a short temper but takes suggestions from others as an attempt to order him around. In other words, although his first wife was nutty too, willful is what it developed into, it was really my Pastor Brother's actions and words that drove her into another man's arms ultimately after years. I had had enough of being with them after just 3 days.
I made it clear to my brother that I supported him in his divorce and remarriage, since his wife got a job, left my brother for her boss, and started living with him. Then when his ex-wife wrote me at Christmas and sent photos of his three children, I wrote back and requested that she let any kind of family info flow through my brother and his then newly second wife, and sent my brother a copy of my response to his children's mother. This does not seem to have made a difference with my brother's loyalties of what he thinks of me (colored strongly I think by the negative bullying relationship which our father had towards myself), as I have never gotten any holiday photos of his kids again. Perhaps they hold grudges too, I don,t know, but due to the distance and my poor finances I did not attend their wedding or give a gift. Talking to his second wife on the phone briefly has convinced me that she is a good match for my Pastor brother. They both are arrogant and self-serving, while concerned to make a good impression. I don't think that his new wife is as good for him as was his old one, for she at least seemed to speak her real mind more. His step-son of about 19 was severely overweight and a loner, and committed suicide this past year (his Mom's job should have been to restrict his food intake and guide him to love himself and to love others).
My Pastor Brother never shows that he appreciates anything that I or any of the family members have done for him in the past. I really think that he appreciates the short hours and easy life of a country preacher, with parsonage provided. He likes to talk tough, dwelling on mostly the Old Testament, and posts some of his sermons on the internet, so I know what he is "feeding" his flock. Mostly it is not feel-good messages, nor even, truthfully needed messages. Mostly, it sounds like he is just lecturing his dysfunctional wife or kids. And dysfunctional they are. Fortunately, in his church, he has mainly a seniors and their offspring type of small church congregation, where they are not going to leave, and where he has been for about 6 years himself. They don't really need a pastor, no matter whether he is effective or not, for the church is mainly turned inward, and devoted to weighty matters of food and family. The organization could just as well be a Masonic lodge for all that outsiders know. Such is my own personal knowledge of what is wrong with the ? Church.?
The Pastor's devour the Sheep's food, and the sheep by now expect nothing less. They've been taught that the most important commandment is this: Thou shalt always tithe, and never have anything negative to think or say about the ?Pastor? Give me a break. I grew up in an Independent Baptist church, and have been a member or just a regular at a good cross-section of evangelical churches. Of all that I have experienced, my favorite still is the Plymouth Bretheren, where there are no paid Pastors, but a lot of volunteer ministers. The Bible is so simple in its essense that there is no need to study for years to be able to write volumes on every subject. We go to church to be at Church. As long as there are a bare number of old-time Christians, major heresy will not come in. Pastors are necessary, but don't run the church, not the true church. Now, teachers are something else, and more important, just as Paul said, he would rather speak one word that was of use to another that 1000 words in a Spiritual language.
My question is self-answering, but it is this. What more could I do to encourage or even demand My Pastor Brother to do some self-examination of what he says from the pulpit. The last time I was reading his sermons off of the internet, it was late at night, I got extremely frustrated with the kind of dressing-down and OT kingly advice that he was spewing out, and emailed him to, for the sake of the children, concentrate more on the NT, especially the Gospels. The very next day, I got a two page letter, from both he and also from his wife, listing their Godly lifestyle, service for the church, His right to select only the guidance from the Holy Spirit, and my brother listing all of the negative things that I had supposedly done to him when we were kids. Being 14 years apart, I was in college when he was in nursery school, so his list was based I suppose on the negative influence of my father, i.e. what was said about me while I was not present, because some of his complaints were really silly, and most I had never heard before. All were untrue.
You see why I have given up doing anything except to pray for them, call once a year, and stay away, but I still feel really cheated for his congregation, good people, and for all of the years and dollars that my family and me invested and worked to give him the position that he now holds, and from which he should have a great and positive influence for the Lord Jesus Christ. I fear that he is somebody who is turning his young folk off to Christ, despite all of the other good influences and programs of the church, which is Christian Brethren, a good denomination.
He left the ministry when he was married the first time and worked as an exterminator in a small town/rural area. My impression from visiting them at this time was that he missed being the boss of the church and the main spiritual guru, and that neglecting his wife's needs and his 3 children,'s needs was not spiritually excusable while not a full-time minister. His first wife hated his sermons but smiled through it all, like a good pastor's wife. His second wife seems to know so little about the Bible and being a practical Christian, that she is positively proud that her husband is the Pastor, and likes being the second most powerful person in the church. Did I mention that my brothers oldest daughter is almost finished high school and lives with my brother and second wife. For a long time now she has been into Goth things, and wears crazy clothes and hair, with the prerequiste black lipstick and nail polish.
Well, that's the sad tale of a Pastor's divorce and rebound remarriage, and some of how it has effected his poor kids, and the good people of his church. I'm sure at this point that it won't take common prayer to change his or his wife's hearts, but only a mighty act of God. In the meantime, In my opinion, he is like the pharisees, who Jesus said would go out of their way to make disciples and then teach them to be even worse hypocrits than themselves.
On the subject of divorce, beware of divorced people in the church, not just the ministers. In my experience, lust is very active in previously sexually experienced people. Many times these people are members at that church because of the flow of visitors, and because of the "singles" ministries. Make sure that the lessons that caused the previous divorce have truly been learned before committing to anyone, and don't be shy about backing out gracefully if the answer to this question is no. Pastors who have been divorced and are remarried, from my experience, are doubly subject to inspection from their congregation in their thought and verbal lives. If a pastor who is lazy or allows his kids to be disruptive comes into the church, Leave. For the ultimate good of your own kids. Some people learn how to be impossible to live with: Such people should get divorced rather than bringing a whole family down. It's the same principle working in the Church.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2006 11:06:48 AM
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cadz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hjohnson
On the subject of divorce, beware of divorced people in the church, not just the ministers. In my experience, lust is very active in previously sexually experienced people. Many times these people are members at that church because of the flow of visitors, and because of the "singles" ministries.
I wish I had known what all the scriptures said about divorce and remarriage years back when I was dating. I definately would not have dated or married a divorced person.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2006 6:06:51 PM
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blessednw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This thread is being created in an attempt to condense the numerous threads on the topic.
When is divorce an acceptable option?
Basically, I believe Jesus tells us that God does not want us to divorce and the desire to do that comes from a hardened heart.
What does God think about divorce?
God hates divorce.
Is divorce a sin?
Not providing for your family(not just $) makes you worse than an unbeliever. IF an unbeliever is under judgement for his unredeemed sin, and 'not providing' makes you worse off, I'd say it is sin. It is rebelling against obeying God.
I believe you can keep your marriage vows even if your spouse is sinning. I believe seperation does not equal divorce and one can remain faithful to their covenant though seperated.
Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry?
It seems that the qualifications for an elder or overseer point to a married person. We can all see the wisdom of this. Our present 'divorce friendly' culture that is in the church too, would say that an elder should be married to someone, even if it was serial monogamy.
Engage in these and similar topics regarding divorce.
I think, in our present culture, divorce is seen as a 'right' for the believer who has been sorely mistreated. As soon as we feel we have 'grounds'/reached an emotional limit/just can't take it anymore, we act, finding a way to make it all acceptable. We can say that people break covenant by all sorts of things, but is that what God really said? Did he say to us, "You have a RIGHT and you GET to divorce and you GET to decide how long it might take for the rebellious one to repent, and how long it TOO LONG." Did He really say, 'the ball is in your court if you have been wronged and you can bring something I hate into your family line, bringing a reverberating legacy of broken commitment to your children and their children'? Did He really give us the go ahead to do the breaking? Or to react in an ungodly way when our spouse was being so obviously sinful towards HIm and us?
I used to think so, I really did. I don't anymore.
The whole arguement of what pornea refers to to when Jesus gives a short clause in Matthew is well debated here. I appreciate that reading it as the betrothal period seems to gel with the rest of Jesus and Paul's teaching on divorce. Wow, its about time the word used was addressed.
I do think that taking a position of 'I have a RIGHT to divorce him/her' is actually a deception from the enemy. I think we can twist or 'cherry pick' certain scriptures to give us a way out of a relationship that is suffereing from the pain of the sins of our spouse against God and of course, affecting us. The overall message of Scripture is reflecting a forever kind of love that has redemption and restoration at the heart of everything. We have so little faith, about the restoring of relationships. It is an area I believe that God wants to change in us.
I think we are called to a love we do not understand, the kind that would lead Jesus to the cross. I think we are given the encouragement to access that love, by prayer through faith, so that we can love when they don't deserve it. I think this is Jesus' kind of love, and the world does not know it, and we will be reviled for it. I think it is a test of our beliefs and character. I think it is really hard for our flesh. It is not hard, though, when we are in the presence of a holy God that has been faithfully loving us, even when we have blown it time and again.
I think when we start seeing the real culprit(our enemy like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour) behind the destruction of trust and love, we will be able to get wise in the battle and we won't let our emotions or flesh lead us. Let us be fighting the good fight, for the glory of God and see the power of the scriptures redeem our situations.
Our kids will be blessed when God brings healing and power into a darkened situation, and redeems for HIs ultimate purposes.
Lord forgive us where we have entertained and promoted divorce in our own lives and the lives of others. Forgive us for taking a RIGHTs approach when wronged, while minimizing our RESPONSIBILITIES to our families. Forgive us for listening to the world and the enemy and our own flesh to try to teach lessons that only YOu can through life's circumstances. Forgive us for acting superiour when we have been wronged, and doing what You do not do, write people off for good! Your love is so far above what we could think of, and we are in great need of it for us to pass our tests and trials. Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Let us not resist You and let Your Church be witness to the world again about Your committed love. Give us a revelation of Your sufficiency in great trials. For Your glory, Amen.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2006 9:08:49 AM
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Mom2MercedesnMyla
Posts: 1
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: NJ
Status: offline
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But don't you think that there are other circumstances that make divorce valid? What if there was physical abuse in the house along with Mental abuse. And what if you are worried about the affects it will have on the children? Or what if the Man is not living up to his role as head of the house as stated in the bible? And more importantly what if a pastor has told you that it was time to get out b/c of all of these things and others??
_____________________________
In Christ,
Vanessa
Mother to Mercedes 10-7-00 and Myla 6-08-04
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2006 5:16:44 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 724
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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Vanessa,
I can only tell you what I have learned over time.
I think there are many reasons that we can come up with for divorce. It is important that we get our reasons from scripture. There is a debate on the divorce and remarriage thread about what Jesus meant when he used the word pornea for fornication in the original language, when he stated a clause in Matthew. You can read all about it.
I am of the conviction that Jesus' teaching was not giving us a way out of a marriage where the spouse was unfaithful after the consummation of the union. I think his one clause was saying it was for the time they were betrothed, like Joseph who was ready to divorce Mary before he understood the purposes of the Lord.
Also, if adultery was meant to be a reason for divorce, we could all be guilty of it. If one of us lusts for another that is not our spouse, Jesus said it is as adultery. He gave us a much higher standard than the Jews were living, as his constant confrontation of the Pharisees shows.
So what about the other things? Many times when someone is abusive they are fighting for control. It should be looked at as any persecution. What are we supposed to do with those who persecute us? Pray for them, if they are believers gently correct them. If we have to correct and they won't listen, take a witness(which is hard since most marital abuse is behind closed doors), but it can be witnessed in counseling situations. I think there is a recognition that women may seperate, but Paul says they shouldn't. "But if they do, they should remain unmarried or be reconciled" Wow.
That would say that if you are seperated for safety or for whatever, don't remarry, but trust the Lord for reconciliation. Do you know many who are doing that? It is unpopular and even laughed at. But Paul said it and the Lord wants us to take it as the authority of scripture.
We have such a deficit of faith to believe that God can and wants to change hearts. Once a person sins to the point that WE say, "that's it, that's enough!" we are being the Judge and possibly determining their future and ours, our children and their children.
oftentimes we are so hurt, confused, frustrated, traumatized, we only see the present pain and turmoil, and may make decisions based on the present. A ways down the road we may see differently. This was my case, and I am grateful now that the Lord has opened my eyes to His intent on this subject. quote:
ORIGINAL: Mom2MercedesnMyla
But don't you think that there are other circumstances that make divorce valid?
Gotta find out in the Word.
What if there was physical abuse in the house along with Mental abuse.
Its persecution....and seperation does not equal divorce.
And what if you are worried about the affects it will have on the children?
do we think divorce is going to really be a good effect on our kids? How about rather gather them around and start asking Jesus to heal the family?
Or what if the Man is not living up to his role as head of the house as stated in the bible?
Does the Word tell us to divorce about this?
And more importantly what if a pastor has told you that it was time to get out b/c of all of these things and others??
Is a pastor above God, and the Word? This is important because lots of pastors are happy to tell us what to do, but will they 'be there for us' or our kids when we are a single parent, living a lonely life having given up hope that God could change our circumstances? Beware of leaders that may lead us into giving up on our calling because it 'feels good' at the time.
I think change in hearts can happen in an instant, but it may take a special stand and walk needing patience, and encouragement and comrades for your family.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2006 1:40:39 AM
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loveis...
Posts: 4
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline
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My original thread was closed and sent here.
I have a dear friend whose husband is bi-polar, and on-off medicated (he thinks he doesn't need it). For a while he would go into mania and dissapear for days at a time, unable to keep a job, would spent money to the point of bunkruptcy. During his depression times he attempted suicide 2 or 3 times, and my DF was at times afraid for her life as well as their 2 children. After 11 years of this kind of marriage she separated and eventually divorced him. As far as she knows he wasn't unfaithful, and even though there were some close encounters, he didn't physically abused them. Did she have gounds for divorce in your opinion? Any Biblical references? As far as I know they are both Christians.
_____________________________
Silvia
Great is the Lord, and Worthy of Praise!
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Great is the Lord, and Worthy of Praise!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2006 10:43:23 AM
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pattern
Posts: 1
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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I was told by the mods to move the other thread to this one. Sorry if it's being highjacked in any way.
"First of all, thank you so much for the responses. What wonderful Christians are here.
I know this may seem simplistic as a way to categorize the responses but it seems that those who are happily married or content with their marriages would not divorce and those who are facing severe challenges would.
Diane, I'm speaking from a perspective of what if the Bible didn't say marriage was forever. What if it were either silent on the matter or said certain things warranted divorce? That leaves each individual the power to now choose what they do when in certain circumstances instead of saying they're married because Scripture says marriage is forever. In other words, do you stay married only because God says so or because of your thoughts and feeling son the topic? (You meaning anyone)
Then it's about the human thoughts and feelings about the institution only. If there were no Scriptural obligations, what would happen? The reason I'm asking this is because our group is both practicing Christians and those who are not and are checking things out. And some are in the situation some on here have shared (in this and other threads). It has been thrown out in group that Christians don't really want to be married in these types of situations. (Whether true or not, I don't know.)
Here's a list of things I've seen mentioned here and other places:
Drug, alcohol dependencies
Sex, gambling and porn addictions
Chronic cheating
Physical abuse
Mental, emotional and verbal abuse
If a person is going through these types of things, would they stay married without Scripture advising them to? The reason this has come up in our group is that recently a woman was killed by her abusive husband. She was told she had no grounds for divorce Biblically. So she stayed in an effort to practice the faith. When he would get violent, she would report it. He would be arrested and then let out of jail. She was told separation is not Biblical and allowed him back in the home each time. Unfortunately, the last time he beat her to death (internal injuries).
This is causing a schism in the group. Those who are happily married or absolutest say you remain married no matter what due to the Bible. Others, mostly those in harsh situations, say they can't believe God would want that for them. They definitely believe the husband who killed the wife (said he was a Christian by the way and no amount of rebuking worked on him and caused more abuse) was a sinner. But they also are saying she enabled his sin in some way by staying.
Again, do you see this split down the middle on this thread as well? Those who said they would stay no matter what, have you ever been abused, the victim of spouse who was less than Godly in a major fashion for a long amount of time? Just curious. I want to have better responses the next time this comes up. "
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2006 12:02:43 PM
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ThePromisedLand
Posts: 450
Joined: 4/21/2006
Status: offline
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Momfree, you are hysterical!!! LOL
quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
YAWN.....all this talk about history, theology and so forth is getting boring and too civil and tmi and confusing (oh and giving me a headache)....can't we just go back to fighting??? Gosh you guys are no fun anymore 
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