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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 12:59:22 AM
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keeperofmysoul
Posts: 31
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PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I SOUND ABRUPT. FALLING ASLEEP.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 1:46:15 AM
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keeperofmysoul
Posts: 31
Joined: 7/21/2006
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please allow me to clarify something. I am coming from the standpoint of marriage is a serious thing and should not be taken. Those who are posting and using the old testament laws to back up the right to divorce for more than adultery, this is just another view point that I am presenting, to alert them to the fact that God also did not allow divorce based upon fornication.
The people who post their view points and utilize the laws of moses to say that mdr is okay in the case of abuse and adultery and just because a person may not get along and live in a rocky marriage, even if it for several years and the parties have more opperated in the flesh than in the spirit toward their spouse.......I wonder if they considered this point of the law as well. That if you slept with your present husband prior to marrying him, you are not free to divorce - EVER. This is the law of God given to Moses. So.....if anyone of us is in this situation, we are litterally bound for life to our partners. It is a hard saying, but those who are utilizing the laws of moses to speak their view points and to justify mdr, I wonder how many of them is in this situation, yet they desire to deny this portion of the law and divorce their spouses anyhow? Maybe their spouses seek reconcilliation, who knows, and they are being denied because of the laws of moses. But If you live the law in one part, would you deny the law in another part? How selfish we can be and unforgiving we can be because we want our own desires. That is people. We want what we want and God should accept what we want and man should accept what we want. The ways of man are selfish, But God is holy and he requires for us to be holy too. We are made in his image and he expects us to be like him. But how many can humble themselves to the will of God and deny the flesh for the will of God?
But truly, who can receive this saying. According to Deuteronomy, You cannot divorce if you have committed fornication prior to marrying your spouse. That is the law of God given to Moses. I do hope that my point is clear.
WHO CAN RECEIVE THIS. AND DO WE LOVE GOD ENOUGH TO OBEY HIM....OR WILL WE JUST EXPECT GOD TO RECEIVE WHATEVER TRASH THAT WE WANT TO THROW AT HIM RATHER THAN OBEY HIS WORD.......
IF YOU PREACH THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS, CAN YOU LIVE BY THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS IS MY POINT.........GOD IS A HOLY GOD AND DEMANDS HOLINESS IN RETURN. TO LIVE THE WAY OF THE WORLD IS AN INSULT TO GOD. WE ARE MADE IN HIS IMAGE AND HE EXPECTS US TO LIVE ABOVE THE WORLD AND TO BE AN EXAMPLE. OUR HOMES ARE BLESSED AND WE SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING THIS IN PEOPLE, NOT ENCOURAGING DIVORCE. THIS THREAD WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE IF PEOPLE WERE TAKING THE TIME TO PRAY FOR TROUBLED MARRIAGES AND REBUKE THE DEVOUR THAT HAVE MADE THE CHILDREN OF GOD'S HOMES THE LAUGHINGSTOCK OF THE WORLD.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL.
GOD BLESS.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 11:11:14 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
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I feel the grief of the Lord in this ,keeper, and that's what drives me speak out on this issue. The enemy is ravaging covenant families and many are so blind to his tactics.
A friend of mine brings up this OT passage once in a while and I SO much see this spirit at work today .........."the adulteress licks her lips and says, "I have not sinned"".........
This is the mentality today in those who come between covenant marriage partners, be they another woman or another man........and the wife/husband is clueless to the behind the scenes spiritual things going on. Many people are nothing more than puppets in a show. They think they are acting on their own, but the truth is they are influenced---and not by God.
I believe the Lord opened up a passage to me more fully and that passage is I Cor. 7:2--"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." Paul could have said that every man should have a wife to avoid fornication, but the words HIS OWN wife were used? Why? I think there is a great reason for this as I believe every word in the Word of God has meaning.
In this day, we have rampant divorces and remarriages taking place. People are taking to themselves OTHER people's wives/husbands. It very much is a form of wife/husband swapping. Most remarriages are agreeable to both parties of the divorce. So it is in marriages where "swapping" goes on. Being in agreement in either a remarriage or having extramarital relations does not make it any less of a sin (adultery) to the Lord. The One flesh HE joined together is being mixed with "strange" flesh. Just something to ponder...........
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 12:31:10 PM
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cadz
Posts: 144
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keeperofmysoul
IF YOU PREACH THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS, CAN YOU LIVE BY THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS IS MY POINT.........
I think I understand what you are saying now.
Thanks
_____________________________
Cheryl
Why I repented of an adulterous remarriage &
cadz FAQ about Divorce & Remarriage
http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
Visit my audio website http://www.cadz.net to listen to broadcasts on Marriage & Divorce
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 1:59:44 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2456
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
I do not expect to change anyone's mind. Everyone here is honestly trying to present what they believe is the truth that God gives us in this issue. We have the Word. We have the Holy Spirit. We have sin and God's redemptive work. We see in part and understand in part. I imagine that when we stand before the Lord and we understand fully, both sides would go.........oh, I see. If only we understood that back then!
car2ner,
I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the 'tone' of your posts. Being in the situation, sometimes can make it very hard to separate oneself from the issues at hand. In any case, I think it really boils down to this for many of us---especially in the lives of GENUINE born again believers. If one is truly born again, they will have Christ living within them. Though they battle the flesh continually, their heart truly is on doing what is the Lord's will.........and sin, will be something they do not REALLY want to give in to---because they know it is because of sin that judgment is coming upon the world.
Whether one believes you can be saved and continue in willful sin because Jesus died for that willful sin or one believes that you must turn from known sin as a fruit of repentance/salvation, in either case, we know that God cannot tolerate sin----it must be judged and dealt with. Sin cannot stand in His presence. We cannot teach/encourage willful sin to occur because of redemption. If one is either "in" sin or contemplating sin and they see the scriptures say what they do (whosoever marries one who is divorced, commits adultery----whosoever puts away their wife/husband and marries another commits adultery) and they ignore these passages, I fear for them because they have opened a door WIDE.
Deep deception occurs. It occurs because we've given Satan an "in" into our lives. The Lord then gives us over to our depravities if we continue down that road. If we stay in that place too long, the deception takes hold deeply and pretty soon many who think they are doing "ok" by the Lord are really deeply entrenched in sin and excusing it---either because of the actions of another or because they have weaknesses themselves they have not dealt with. The enemy laughs. Where there are excuses for sin, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God in it.
I think there are quite a few of us here who are not trying to smack someone over the head with "law", but are trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, as well as spare those who either may be contemplating it or who may contemplate it in the future. As I've stated before, I know people who have repented of (forsaken) adulterous remarriages. There is much pain involved in doing so----pain that could have been avoided IF those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand, OR heeded it earlier in their adulterous relationships. If only we could all see ahead.......see our rebellion, see how the Lord will deal with us down the road bringing conviction..........much destruction in our own lives as well as the destruction we bring into our children's lives could be avoided.
I feel horrible not only for the children of a 1st marriage when a third person is allowed into the mix, but also for the children born of a second union, when the first spouse gets convicted they are living in a state of adultery with the second spouse. Those children would not have had to face such difficult circumstances had their parents made more Godly choices. Not only those children, but the step children as well who may become attached to the second spouse. Those who are in second/third marriages might think things are going swell right now, so this does not apply, but what if the Lord starts dealing with you? What if the Word you thought meant something else, now comes alive to you and you SEE you are in adultery? As I said, if only we could see down the road....
Yes, we all see dimly for now (hence progressive revelation and progressive conviction), but noone will ever convince me the Lord gives permission for "love to fail"......ie; give up, move on, not endure, seek his/her own best. When I read I Cor. 13, THAT is the picture of TRUE LOVE for a Christian. For a Christian to teach/encourage other Christians to ""seek their best" because surely the Lord wouldn't want them to suffer"...........I can't agree with that because it just does not line up with either the HEART of God, nor His Word to us. We are called to DIE, so that HE may live. We were not called to die so that we may live nicer, better, more comfortable lives. We were called to DIE, so that HE may be glorified through us.
Greetings,
quote:
Deep deception occurs. It occurs because we've given Satan an "in" into our lives. The Lord then gives us over to our depravities if we continue down that road. If we stay in that place too long, the deception takes hold deeply and pretty soon many who think they are doing "ok" by the Lord are really deeply entrenched in sin and excusing it---either because of the actions of another or because they have weaknesses themselves they have not dealt with. The enemy laughs. Where there are excuses for sin, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God in it.
I think there are quite a few of us here who are not trying to smack someone over the head with "law", but are trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, as well as spare those who either may be contemplating it or who may contemplate it in the future. As I've stated before, I know people who have repented of (forsaken) adulterous remarriages. There is much pain involved in doing so----pain that could have been avoided IF those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand, OR heeded it earlier in their adulterous relationships. If only we could all see ahead.......see our rebellion, see how the Lord will deal with us down the road bringing conviction..........much destruction in our own lives as well as the destruction we bring into our children's lives could be avoided.
quote:
Where there are excuses for sin, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God in it.
I think there are quite a few of us here who are not trying to smack someone over the head with "law", but are trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery,
As well as spare those who either may be contemplating it or who may contemplate it in the future.
Greetings,
I agree that with the statements above, however the one about trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, I am a little weary about, how do you suppose that we short of the HS can do anything to free those souls?
The Bible also mentions that when our Father looks through the blood of Jesus by the consummation at the cross God does not see our sin, falling short of us trying to free someone, it is best for them to find Christ for such entrenchment’s.
quote:
I know people who have repented of (forsaken) adulterous remarriages. There is much pain involved in doing so----pain that could have been avoided IF those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand,
This is true… “IF” those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand
But what about the ones who do…are we to promote divorce?
I am still not finding in the scriptures where repentance requires dicorce?
And to shed some light on keeperofmysoul offerings,
I find it amazing that although this joining stated as between a man and a women does not seem to be unlawful to include many wives, just as long as there is no divorce,
but this is not the case.
In the whole counsel of God “anyone” who marries, is joined as one… as Jesus said. 'For “this reason” “a man” shall leave his father and mother “and be joined to his wife”, 8 and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
We have to keep in line with what Jesus is speaking of within a present marriage covenant or the present tense, and it is also true they cannot divorce for anything other than sexual immorality,
That statement above alone will annul all past practices of multiple spouses, but not the resulting cause for adultery
In like manner it would also have to include those relationships of fornication before marriage as a matter of bonding.
Lets break it down a little…
Definition of consummation. 1 : the act of consummating *the consummation of a contract by mutual signature; specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2 : the ultimate end : FINISH
There is a difference between bonding and a marriage consummation.
There was nothing seen between Adam and Eve ever consummating a marriage, at least not by definition of consummation,
Because there were first joined as one before sexually bonding, which therefore is the basis for divorce, not the marriage itself, which is a “mutual agreement” which can be broken.
IMHO The basis of adultery stems on the bonding issues, which were established in the beginning.
However, It is interesting in that there was nothing stated by Eve in reply to Adam saying, “this is the bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh” to fit the definition of a consummation of a contract by “mutual signature”, let alone a vocal response by Eve.
If we look at this closely, as Paul mentioned, “But I speak of Christ and the Church” then Adam and Eve are a picture of Christ and the Church.
Being we do not see a vocal acknowledgement to form a contract by mutual signature expressed by Eve in the beginning, it is however expressed vocally by the Church or even more those accepting Christ as husband today.
Therefore consummating by mutual signature a marriage agreement seen between Christ and the Church in which the exception came to light as a matter for divorce.
However there is nothing to be seen in the scriptures that sexual immorality is being committed between one another, or against one another, or between two newly married people who are joined as one, … who are reconciled in Christ.
If it were any other way then everyone who had relations in the past could never get married, and no one would be saved.
Since it is not unlawful to remarry and it is not put forth in scripture as being unlawful, I can see no legal reason to divorce as a matter of repentance.
To do so in this instance one must adhere to the same letter of the law under the exception, unless one was unfaithful in the new relationship, in Christ a divorce as a matter of repentance is unlawful.
Because “anyone” who marries, are joined as one, as established “from the beginning”, and anyone who is unfaithful will be cast into outer darkness, as established “in” Christ.
Repentance by divorce in this instance fits under the category, a category abolished by Christ, as for any reason.
Because “between” the one flesh union, the newly married couple entered into an established union set since the beginning based on the premises that one is a man and the other is a women, and therefore sexual immorality is the only reason for divorce between the two.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 3:25:28 PM
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keeperofmysoul
Posts: 31
Joined: 7/21/2006
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I would also like to state the fact of God divorcing Israel. God still loves Israel. If you notice why God divorced Israel, adultery was listed among the main reasons. There are those that post that his divorce to Israel was final.......But consider.......Today, Jews find Christ as their personal savior on an individual basis as they accept and receive the word of God that Jesus came and died for them. The nation as a whole may have rejected God and are still in sin, that is why God had to divorce as a nation.....but those who have come to Him individually, he receives with open arms.....otherwise, God would look the other way when they come and repent of their sins, receiving jesus Christ into their hearts and believing that he is the Messiah. God is a God of reconcilliation, not of tearing down homes.
Anyone who comes to God he will in no wise cast out. Even Rahab was accepted by God and she was a prostitute in repentance. God pronounces judgment on some people in the word of God, yes, but please take every instance into context. David and Bathsheba was about a sin of adultery and murder. The punishment was received and David repented. I am sure if Uriah was still alive, David would have had to have left the man's wife alone and own up to his sin and of course take care of the child. He could not bring back Uriah, so he took in Bathsheba and yes, the baby died, but what does that have to do with the divorce, remarriage issue? It was a punishment for the sin of adultery. I see people taking the word of God out of context of the scriptures groping to find ways to justify their beliefs. The sin was adultery and murder which was punished. David could not have taken Bathsheba in if Uriah was still alive, she was another man's wife......
How we want to justify our wrongs before the Lord. I am just trying to figure out what the loss of the baby had to do with mdr. The prinicipal of the thing is what you have made it to be of yourselves. Someone else looking at that same scripture would draw another PRINCIPLE FROM IT. Principles that you have drawn that do not relate to the topic in quesion and that God did not state in black and white. How we grope for our ways to be justified before the Lord. If we are going to study Jewish history and live by the laws of Moses, we have to be able to live the whole law, not just the part of it that satisfies us.
God bless.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 4:36:14 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I agree that with the statements above, however the one about trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, I am a little weary about, how do you suppose that we short of the HS can do anything to free those souls
I don't think I ever stated that anything can ever be accomplished in the kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is who gives us revelation of truth. Without Him, we would be as lost as the world around us----seeing, yet blind, hearing, yet deaf.
quote:
The Bible also mentions that when our Father looks through the blood of Jesus by the consummation at the cross God does not see our sin, falling short of us trying to free someone, it is best for them to find Christ for such entrenchment’s.
"Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
quote:
This is true… “IF” those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand
But what about the ones who do…are we to promote divorce?
I am still not finding in the scriptures where repentance requires dicorce?
So you are saying that if one is in an illicit relationship, repentance means staying in the relationship?
quote:
In the whole counsel of God “anyone” who marries, is joined as one… as Jesus said. 'For “this reason” “a man” shall leave his father and mother “and be joined to his wife”, 8 and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. We have to keep in line with what Jesus is speaking of within a present marriage covenant or the present tense, and it is also true they cannot divorce for anything other than sexual immorality,
Jesus says, "whosoever marries one put away, commits adultery".........where do you see that quote:
GOD joins that together? Does God join into One that which He Himself has called sexual sin/an illicit relationship?
quote:
There was nothing seen between Adam and Eve ever consummating a marriage, at least not by definition of consummation,
Because there were first joined as one before sexually bonding ,
And in both instances, OT creation account of "one flesh" and NT account of marital "one flesh"-------it is GOD who does the joining, not man. With sexual relations, there is a joining, but it is not the same ONE FLESH that God joins together until death. That "joining" is what man/woman do........so is sin in the Lord's eyes, while "joining" within a lawful marriage, is not sin in the Lord's eyes.
quote:
Since it is not unlawful to remarry and it is not put forth in scripture as being unlawful, I can see no legal reason to divorce as a matter of repentance.
Wow, Gypsy, I'm not sure which translation you use, but the ones I have sure do have much to say about remarriage being unlawful in the sight of God while one has a living spouse.
quote:
Because “anyone” who marries, are joined as one, as established “from the beginning”, and anyone who is unfaithful will be cast into outer darkness, as established “in” Christ.
Sorry, not following you here. Are you saying that an affair nullifies a marriage and now the ones who had an affair are joined by God as one flesh? or are you saying that all sexual relations produce "one flesh", but that it is not joined by God?
quote:
Repentance by divorce in this instance fits under the category, a category abolished by Christ, as for any reason.
What would you do for a married homosexual couple, Gypsy. Would you tell them that a divorce is unnecessary........because it would fall under the "for any reason" category?
quote:
Because “between” the one flesh union, the newly married couple entered into an established union set since the beginning based on the premises that one is a man and the other is a women, and therefore sexual immorality is the only reason for divorce between the two.
Does not sexual immorality include that the couple is committing adultery against their lawful spouses? If such a couple enters into marriage unlawfully, committing adultery as Jesus said, you do not include "this" type of adultery----only adultery when it comes to covenant spouses? That is a mighty strange stance to me, Gypsy...........
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 8:30:39 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2456
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
I agree that with the statements above, however the one about trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, I am a little weary about, how do you suppose that we short of the HS can do anything to free those souls
I don't think I ever stated that anything can ever be accomplished in the kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is who gives us revelation of truth. Without Him, we would be as lost as the world around us----seeing, yet blind, hearing, yet deaf.
quote:
The Bible also mentions that when our Father looks through the blood of Jesus by the consummation at the cross God does not see our sin, falling short of us trying to free someone, it is best for them to find Christ for such entrenchment’s.
"Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
quote:
This is true… “IF” those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand
But what about the ones who do…are we to promote divorce?
I am still not finding in the scriptures where repentance requires dicorce?
So you are saying that if one is in an illicit relationship, repentance means staying in the relationship?
quote:
In the whole counsel of God “anyone” who marries, is joined as one… as Jesus said. 'For “this reason” “a man” shall leave his father and mother “and be joined to his wife”, 8 and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. We have to keep in line with what Jesus is speaking of within a present marriage covenant or the present tense, and it is also true they cannot divorce for anything other than sexual immorality,
Jesus says, "whosoever marries one put away, commits adultery".........where do you see that quote:
GOD joins that together? Does God join into One that which He Himself has called sexual sin/an illicit relationship?
quote:
There was nothing seen between Adam and Eve ever consummating a marriage, at least not by definition of consummation,
Because there were first joined as one before sexually bonding ,
And in both instances, OT creation account of "one flesh" and NT account of marital "one flesh"-------it is GOD who does the joining, not man. With sexual relations, there is a joining, but it is not the same ONE FLESH that God joins together until death. That "joining" is what man/woman do........so is sin in the Lord's eyes, while "joining" within a lawful marriage, is not sin in the Lord's eyes.
quote:
Since it is not unlawful to remarry and it is not put forth in scripture as being unlawful, I can see no legal reason to divorce as a matter of repentance.
Wow, Gypsy, I'm not sure which translation you use, but the ones I have sure do have much to say about remarriage being unlawful in the sight of God while one has a living spouse.
quote:
Because “anyone” who marries, are joined as one, as established “from the beginning”, and anyone who is unfaithful will be cast into outer darkness, as established “in” Christ.
Sorry, not following you here. Are you saying that an affair nullifies a marriage and now the ones who had an affair are joined by God as one flesh? or are you saying that all sexual relations produce "one flesh", but that it is not joined by God?
quote:
Repentance by divorce in this instance fits under the category, a category abolished by Christ, as for any reason.
What would you do for a married homosexual couple, Gypsy. Would you tell them that a divorce is unnecessary........because it would fall under the "for any reason" category?
quote:
Because “between” the one flesh union, the newly married couple entered into an established union set since the beginning based on the premises that one is a man and the other is a women, and therefore sexual immorality is the only reason for divorce between the two.
Does not sexual immorality include that the couple is committing adultery against their lawful spouses? If such a couple enters into marriage unlawfully, committing adultery as Jesus said, you do not include "this" type of adultery----only adultery when it comes to covenant spouses? That is a mighty strange stance to me, Gypsy...........
Greetings,
quote:
I don't think I ever stated that anything can ever be accomplished in the kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is who gives us revelation of truth. Without Him, we would be as lost as the world around us----seeing, yet blind, hearing, yet deaf.
quote:
The Bible also mentions that when our Father looks through the blood of Jesus by the consummation at the cross God does not see our sin, falling short of us trying to free someone, it is best for them to find Christ for such entrenchment’s.
"Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
quote:
This is true… “IF” those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand
But what about the ones who do…are we to promote divorce?
I am still not finding in the scriptures where repentance requires divorce?
So you are saying that if one is in an illicit relationship, repentance means staying in the relationship?
No I am not saying that, lets take what you said quite clearly in James 5:19, and what I said “falling short of us trying to free someone, it is best for them to find Christ for such entrenchment’s.”
Again who does the actual work? Jesus or us?
You seem to suggest comdemnation to correct an error
Yet James 5:19 suggests mercy
According to Christ, when one comes to the feet of Jesus, be it either by the brethren as mentioned in James 5:19 or on their own, as mentioned in James 5:19 which you offered, and I also agree with.
It says clearly a multitude of sins is hidden, written as “and shall hide a multitude of sins”.
This is written as clearly as it is written in Luke 16:18
…is it not?
If these past sins are hidden or in other words forgiven, then why would the Father require us to Divorce as a matter of repentance from the sin of adultery when He Himself remembers their sins no more and moreover requires us a) to hinder the knowledge of a thing
Come on…I am quoting straight scripture…Are they forgiven or are they not?
In James 5:19 the words “shall hide”
Greek for 2572 Pronunciation Guide kalupto {kal-oop'-to}
TDNT Reference Root Word TDNT - 3:536,405 akin to 2813 and 2928 Part of Speech v Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to hide, veil
a) to hinder the knowledge of a thing
If one takes notice to the usage of the words, the intended usage’s in James 5:19 “shall hide”
This does not suggest condemnation, or to save one by condemnation to divorce, as it is written, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
The Bible tells us we are to come to Him as we are, not to change the past as if saying…look Lord I did this for you, I am sorry to say but that is works, and works do not save us.
You asked
“So you are saying that if one is in an illicit relationship, repentance means staying in the relationship?”
Repentance again I will offer, is to be saved, and this word in James 5:19 is “shall save”
Pronunciation Guide
sozo {sode'-zo}James 5:19
TDNT Reference Root Word TDNT - 7:965,1132 from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Part of Speech v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)
1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
b) to save in the technical biblical sense
1) negatively
a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
quote:
I don't think I ever stated that anything can ever be accomplished in the kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is who gives us revelation of truth.
Then here is what the Spirit is saying....
Where according to James 5:19... does it suggest a backward motion or to divorce as a means of repentance?
If it did it would be like Peter walking on the water, and began to sink, instead of just reaching down and bringing Peter to safety, and if we are to divorce as a matter of repentance, then Jesus just simply should have done away with the water.
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 10/8/2006 8:33:28 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 9:09:45 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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"Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
quote:
You seem to suggest comdemnation to correct an error
Yet James 5:19 suggests mercy
I suggest no such thing, though it seems you desire to believe so because of my stance. It is understandable that you would take such a view.
quote:
According to Christ, when one comes to the feet of Jesus, be it either by the brethren as mentioned in James 5:19 or on their own, as mentioned in James 5:19 which you offered, and I also agree with.
It says clearly a multitude of sins is hidden, written as “and shall hide a multitude of sins”.
Yes WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN CONVERTED from the error of their way. That signifies a TURNING away from sin. THEN the sins are hidden.
quote:
If these past sins are hidden or in other words forgiven, then why would the Father require us to Divorce as a matter of repentance from the sin of adultery when He Himself remembers their sins no more and moreover requires us a) to hinder the knowledge of a thing
If the Father sees one as married to another, then forsaking the adulterous relationship IS repentance, Gypsy. Many people come to Christ entangled in sinful relationships in which the "fruit" of repentance is the forsaking of those relationships. Salvation does not change the nature of a sinful relationship........at least I haven't seen scripture to that effect yet.
quote:
If one takes notice to the usage of the words, the intended usage’s in James 5:19 “shall hide”
This does not suggest condemnation, or to save one by condemnation to divorce, as it is written, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
The Bible tells us we are to come to Him as we are,
I don't know why you are stuck on this condemnation thing with James 5:19. Scripture says what it does. I did not add to that passage with my own interpretation when I first posted it. I think it stands on it's own. You say the Bible tells us to come as we are. I agree. However, Jesus, if we truly are converted, will not allow us to STAY where we were (in our sin) after we come to Him. We will forsake sin as it becomes known to us as such.
quote:
not to change the past as if saying…look Lord I did this for you, I am sorry to say but that is works, and works do not save us.
Those who are truly regenerated bring forth the fruits of repentance. It's not because those works will save us, it's because we ARE saved that we desire to forsake our sin----very different mindset.
quote:
Repentance again I will offer, is to be saved, and this word in James 5:19 is “shall save”
Pronunciation Guide
sozo {sode'-zo}James 5:19
TDNT Reference Root Word TDNT - 7:965,1132 from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Part of Speech v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)
1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
b) to save in the technical biblical sense
1) negatively
a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
The reason I quoted that passage in the first place Gypsy is because you seem to have a problem with brothers/sisters addressing sin and thinking by us doing so, we are being condemning. That passage proves otherwise. It proves that there is a great work that is accomplished when a brother or sister cares enough to rescue another brother or sister from destruction.
quote:
Where according to James 5:19... does it suggest a backward motion or to divorce as a means of repentance?
A backward motion? Well, "convert a sinner from the error of his WAY".........I very much thing that shows a movement.......you may call it backward, I call it a turning around and turning away from sin back towards righteousness and holiness. If one is in adultery, then to "turn back towards holiness" would entail forsaking the adultery, wouldn't it? Or are you one who believes that one can continue in sin with good conscience and in good standing with the Lord----because the blood covers all?
quote:
If it did it would be like Peter walking on the water, and began to sink, instead of just reaching down and bringing Peter to safety, and if we are to divorce as a matter of repentance, then Jesus just simply should have done away with the water.
What?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2006 10:18:10 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2456
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
"Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
quote:
You seem to suggest comdemnation to correct an error
Yet James 5:19 suggests mercy
I suggest no such thing, though it seems you desire to believe so because of my stance. It is understandable that you would take such a view.
quote:
According to Christ, when one comes to the feet of Jesus, be it either by the brethren as mentioned in James 5:19 or on their own, as mentioned in James 5:19 which you offered, and I also agree with.
It says clearly a multitude of sins is hidden, written as “and shall hide a multitude of sins”.
Yes WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN CONVERTED from the error of their way. That signifies a TURNING away from sin. THEN the sins are hidden.
quote:
If these past sins are hidden or in other words forgiven, then why would the Father require us to Divorce as a matter of repentance from the sin of adultery when He Himself remembers their sins no more and moreover requires us a) to hinder the knowledge of a thing
If the Father sees one as married to another, then forsaking the adulterous relationship IS repentance, Gypsy. Many people come to Christ entangled in sinful relationships in which the "fruit" of repentance is the forsaking of those relationships. Salvation does not change the nature of a sinful relationship........at least I haven't seen scripture to that effect yet.
quote:
If one takes notice to the usage of the words, the intended usage’s in James 5:19 “shall hide”
This does not suggest condemnation, or to save one by condemnation to divorce, as it is written, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
The Bible tells us we are to come to Him as we are,
I don't know why you are stuck on this condemnation thing with James 5:19. Scripture says what it does. I did not add to that passage with my own interpretation when I first posted it. I think it stands on it's own. You say the Bible tells us to come as we are. I agree. However, Jesus, if we truly are converted, will not allow us to STAY where we were (in our sin) after we come to Him. We will forsake sin as it becomes known to us as such.
quote:
not to change the past as if saying…look Lord I did this for you, I am sorry to say but that is works, and works do not save us.
Those who are truly regenerated bring forth the fruits of repentance. It's not because those works will save us, it's because we ARE saved that we desire to forsake our sin----very different mindset.
quote:
Repentance again I will offer, is to be saved, and this word in James 5:19 is “shall save”
Pronunciation Guide
sozo {sode'-zo}James 5:19
TDNT Reference Root Word TDNT - 7:965,1132 from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Part of Speech v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)
1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
b) to save in the technical biblical sense
1) negatively
a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
The reason I quoted that passage in the first place Gypsy is because you seem to have a problem with brothers/sisters addressing sin and thinking by us doing so, we are being condemning. That passage proves otherwise. It proves that there is a great work that is accomplished when a brother or sister cares enough to rescue another brother or sister from destruction.
quote:
Where according to James 5:19... does it suggest a backward motion or to divorce as a means of repentance?
A backward motion? Well, "convert a sinner from the error of his WAY".........I very much thing that shows a movement.......you may call it backward, I call it a turning around and turning away from sin back towards righteousness and holiness. If one is in adultery, then to "turn back towards holiness" would entail forsaking the adultery, wouldn't it? Or are you one who believes that one can continue in sin with good conscience and in good standing with the Lord----because the blood covers all?
quote:
If it did it would be like Peter walking on the water, and began to sink, instead of just reaching down and bringing Peter to safety, and if we are to divorce as a matter of repentance, then Jesus just simply should have done away with the water.
What?
quote:
I don't know why you are stuck on this condemnation thing with James 5:19. Scripture says what it does. I did not add to that passage with my own interpretation when I first posted it. I think it stands on it's own. You say the Bible tells us to come as we are. I agree. However, Jesus, if we truly are converted, will not allow us to STAY where we were (in our sin) after we come to Him. We will forsake sin as it becomes known to us as such.
Greetings,
quote:
I suggest no such thing, though it seems you desire to believe so because of my stance. It is understandable that you would take such a view.
I take such a view because I detect a double mindedness in your use of words.
For example:
quote:
I don't know why you are stuck on this condemnation thing with James 5:19. Scripture says what it does. I did not add to that passage with my own interpretation when I first posted it. I think it stands on it's own. You say the Bible tells us to come as we are. I agree. However, Jesus, if we truly are converted, will not allow us to STAY where we were (in our sin) after we come to Him. We will forsake sin as it becomes known to us as such.
In the bold statement above is not a biblical stance, there is a movie called the way we were, and even in this secular account of a love story, even those two could not go back and fix what they once had.
In like manner God does not go back and fix what we did.
God restores us from the point in which we are, the we are, is biblical not the way we were.
Do not you see the contradiction of what you said?
quote:
However, Jesus, if we truly are converted, will not allow us to STAY where we were (in our sin) after we come to Him. We will forsake sin as it becomes known to us as such.
The Bible says one can not come to Christ without first having there sins forgiven, this alone biblically eliminates the way we were, and it is at that time the way we are, and we will forsake sin as it becomes known to us but it is not by comdemnation Ro 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
The point of the confession is already acknowledging our sin in the first place, so that we can come to Him. But you say we will forsake our sin after we come to Him?
quote:
though it seems you desire to believe so because of my stance
You are correct, there are two many principals being mixed in the choice of your words.
Another example: in principal…
Luke 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise up and walk'?
24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 25 Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying,
"We have seen strange things today!"
If this mans sin was an adulator would there be another outcome?
quote:
The reason I quoted that passage in the first place Gypsy is because you seem to have a problem with brothers/sisters addressing sin and thinking by us doing so, we are being condemning.
No..
The reason why is because you have heard strange things today!
Just as Jesus showed us the stiffness of the Law in Luke 16:18, I challenge you right now to show us where it is written in scripture, "word for word" as it is written in Luke 16:18, saying divorce is a matter of repentance.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2006 12:05:10 AM
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keeperofmysoul
Posts: 31
Joined: 7/21/2006
Status: offline
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Hi, I don't see it beneficial to argue whether a person who has commited the sin in the past should stay in the relationship or not. The main point is that when we realize that we have erred, we repent. I have heard of people leaving their present wives to return to their correct wives. I have also heard of people staying with their present wives and God turning the situation around for the Good of Christ. Which is correct? I don't know. I think that this portion is something that we need to Go to God about because I know that the Bible tells that mdr outside of adultery is wrong, at the same time, I am not seeing in the scriptures if the act is already done, what needs to be done in order to correct the situation. Of course repentance is the most obvious thing. How that repentance is done I think rather than speculate and argue, we should allow the Spirit of the Lord to teach us what to do. When we pray before the Lord and seek His face, God leads us and directs us. Sometimes things that are not readily noticeable in His word, He eventually gives us the understanding. Jesus forgives us and that is important. I know that if I had a child out of wedlock, I have committed the act of fornication which produced a child as a result, but I cannot send the child back. Repentance would be asking for forgiveness for the act of fornication and then yielding myself to the will of God not to go that route any more. As far as putting away a second marriage because you made the wrong choice outside of the will of God depends on situations which the Holy Spirit needs to give wisdom to handle. Sometimes both parties are already remarried and if the other party has not come to repentance, then what should the repentant person do? Sometimes there are children involved in the second marriage....just like there may be in the first. Children hurt tremendously because of our sins. But God needs to give wisdom in such complicated issues. A person could leave his second wife and return to the first realizing that his life is in constant adultery and I could see that happening as well. This of course is a difficult decision to make, yet I have heard of people who the Holy spirit litterally have led to go that route. A few months ago, my pastor related to me a story of a personal friend that he had. The friend was a pastor and had been married twice already, and was now in his third marriage which was also going sour. My pastor said that his friend started to seek the Lord in the way that he should and asked God what was wrong. The Holy Spirit revealed to this pastor that the problem was him and that he needed to be saved. He told me that his friend repented and then divorced the third wife and went and remarried the first wife, realizing that he was wrong before the Lord from the beginning. WOW. I couldn't believe it when my pastor told me this story. But this was a personal friend of his, and the Holy Spirit allowed him to see himself and come to repentance and then led him to go back to his first wife.
What can I say about that. Can I say that God would give the same solution to everyone if there were children involved, etc... I don't know. My mom told me of a personal friend of hers to that divorced the second wife and returned to the first wife.
Let's not argue about the solution to repentance. Let's pray about those that are in this situation and ask the Lord for direction and wisdom. I do have a question, though. As I was writing, isn't there a place in the Bible where the children of Israel they had taken wives of another nation and God called them on their sin and they repented and also put away the wives that they had taken of that nation, because it was sin? Can anyone help me on this. I just thought about it as I was writing this post.
Thanks.
Keeper
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2006 12:10:08 AM
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keeperofmysoul
Posts: 31
Joined: 7/21/2006
Status: offline
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I did want to ask, if each of you posting in this thread were found in a situation where you were dating someone or maybe you know someone who was dating someone that was divorcing for reasons other than adultery, and they had slept with their present or ex-wives prior to marriage, would you stay in the relationship????
Remember, the laws of Moses have not changed for anyone; this is the argument that is presented by those standing for mdr. So if you were found in this situation, or if your friend was found in this situation, what would you encourage yourself or your friend/family member to do? The scripture says in Deuteronomy they are not free to marry put away their wives, ever. So if you or your friend/family member marries that individual, this is a sure living in adultery for the rest of your life......Would God honor such a second marriage?
Thanks all.
keeper
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2006 11:33:28 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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"Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
quote:
I take such a view because I detect a double mindedness in your use of words.
In the bold statement above is not a biblical stance, there is a movie called the way we were, and even in this secular account of a love story, even those two could not go back and fix what they once had. In like manner God does not go back and fix what we did.
God restores us from the point in which we are, the we are, is biblical not the way we were. Do not you see the contradiction of what you said?
Absolutely not. I will ask you this, Gypsy: If God delivers one out of an adulterous relationship, will they then go back into that again, if they see their sin?
As for your idea that we cannot go back and fix things.............I think you are very wrong in this. Some things cannot be fixed. But, if one is PRESENTLY in a sinful relationship, they CAN fix that situation----by departing from it. There is also a thing called RESTITUTION and that is a VERY biblical teaching. When Zachias came to faith/trust in the Lord Jesus he SAW his sin and told the Lord he would pay restitution for his PAST sins. Did the Lord rebuke him? No, He did not because what Zachias was doing was right. It was the "fruit" of repentance. If someone does not show forth the "fruit" of repentance, I have a hard time believing they can even SEE their sin......and if that's the case, were they Called by God in the first place (Jn. 6:44).
quote:
will forsake sin as it becomes known to us but it is not by comdemnation Ro 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Who said it was by condemnation that one will forsake sin? That doesn't even make any sense.
quote:
The point of the confession is already acknowledging our sin in the first place, so that we can come to Him. But you say we will forsake our sin after we come to Him?
Gypsy, I have a real hard time following you. Are you saying that we can CONTINUE in sin or that sin somehow changes to non sin because we become converted? Paul specifically states that we are not to allow sin to reign in our bodies and whatever we serve we are slaves to. Are you saying that it is quite ok to be a slave to sin while one confesses the blood of Christ?
quote:
Just as Jesus showed us the stiffness of the Law in Luke 16:18, I challenge you right now to show us where it is written in scripture, "word for word" as it is written in Luke 16:18, saying divorce is a matter of repentance.
And I would also ask you to provide to me word for word that homosexual unions should continue after conversion.............or do you believe they should "depart" from those sinful unions?
Obviously, I'm trying to prove a point here. Just because the Word of God doesn't use specific wording on how/when to depart from sin, what it does do is label sin............and if we have the label, we know, if we are truly followers of Christ, we are to forsake sin----period.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2006 2:43:11 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7679
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2006 8:22:40 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2456
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Greetings,
quote:
I don't think I ever stated that anything can ever be accomplished in the kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is who gives us revelation of truth. Without Him, we would be as lost as the world around us----seeing, yet blind, hearing, yet deaf.
quote:
And I would also ask you to provide to me word for word that homosexual unions should continue after conversion.............or do you believe they should "depart" from those sinful unions?
Come on… have mercy! What does that have anything to do with the truth, but since it was raised and you believe as I do the HS gives revelation of the truth, then you should at least agree to what I am about to show you
Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 'Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants.
26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Let’s call the above the root, or the root scripture of the study to find a truth, and apply a simple principal found in
Ro 11:16
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
In reference to the points I have been attempting to express let us branch out and see what we can find.
You raised an analogy concerning homosexuals and I gave the root and to be consistent with the opinions stated in this thread previously by others verse 29 will be the root for this discussion. One could read Lev 20:13 for a harsher picture.
But Notice the word Abomination, not if we branch out to
Deu 24:4 Her former 07223 husband 01167, which sent her away 07971 , may 03201 not take 03947 her again 07725 to be his wife 0802, after 0310 that she is defiled 02930 ; for that [is] abomination 08441 before 06440 the LORD 03068: and thou shalt not cause the land 0776 to sin 02398 , which the LORD 03068 thy God 0430 giveth 05414 thee [for] an inheritance 05159.
Now remember…we are going to establish a truth by two witnesses… to avoid any contradictions.
Now read what keeperofmysoul offered in the previous post….
quote:
This of course is a difficult decision to make, yet I have heard of people who the Holy spirit literally have led to go that route.
A few months ago, my pastor related to me a story of a personal friend that he had. The friend was a pastor and had been married twice already, and was now in his third marriage which was also going sour. My pastor said that his friend started to seek the Lord in the way that he should and asked God what was wrong. The Holy Spirit revealed to this pastor that the problem was him and that he needed to be saved. He told me that his friend repented and then divorced the third wife and went and remarried the first wife, realizing that he was wrong before the Lord from the beginning. WOW. I couldn't believe it when my pastor told me this story. But this was a personal friend of his, and the Holy Spirit allowed him to see himself and come to repentance and then led him to go back to his first wife.
I will not be explaining at this point what I see wrong in the quote above…. I will let you tell me…If you wish?
All you have to do is just reference it to the established truths found in verse Lev 18:29 and Duet 24:4 and the word Abomination.
No what ifs, and no other scriptures…. Just face value.
What do you see?
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2006 8:45:51 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
A few months ago, my pastor related to me a story of a personal friend that he had. The friend was a pastor and had bee | | |
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