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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2008 8:59:47 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
However, quite often it is not safe for the person to stay in the marriage either.
Seems to me that many of the statistics I've read of women being killed were when they were trying to divorce their spouses---their spouses did not want to "lose" their partner to another person. Are you saying that divorce, not just separating, ensures MORE safety for the woman?
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2008 9:45:54 PM
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hnt
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As I have mentioned before - you need to recheck your sources Lastblast! That is incorrect information.
The most dangerous time for people is when they attempt to leave, and after they just left.
Even if you sources were correct - that doesn't make them less wacked in the head if you think about it.!  There is never justification for hurting another in that fashion.
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2008 9:51:18 PM
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hnt
Posts: 529
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
However, quite often it is not safe for the person to stay in the marriage either.
Seems to me that many of the statistics I've read of women being killed were when they were trying to divorce their spouses---their spouses did not want to "lose" their partner to another person. Are you saying that divorce, not just separating, ensures MORE safety for the woman?
What difference does it make if they person doesn't remarry? I mean that is your biggest point you are making!
YES in some circumstances they ARE safer divorced! We can't change how the laws of this land work. I'm sure in time they can tweak some of it, but I can't see big changes in our lifetime.
_____________________________
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:43:12 AM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
However, quite often it is not safe for the person to stay in the marriage either.
Seems to me that many of the statistics I've read of women being killed were when they were trying to divorce their spouses---their spouses did not want to "lose" their partner to another person. Are you saying that divorce, not just separating, ensures MORE safety for the woman?
It can insure more safety for the abused spouse.
While you're still married, your spouse has more rights to know where you live, etc.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 1:36:24 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
Anyway...since I'm done here, I'll say it once and for all...this is one of the many reasons I find it impossible to have anything to do with Christianity...the narrow-mindedness, the blanket condemnation, and yes, the hypocricy.
What is being presented here by lastblast and a few others on this thread is not what most Christians believe or teach about divorce. Most Christians do not believe the bible teaches that divorce is never acceptable for any reason. If you are using that teaching as a basis on which to reject Christanity, you are rejecting Christianity based on a teaching that almost all Christian churches have also rejected.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 6:03:50 AM
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car2ner
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This really is a tricky situation. Marriage is a holy and necessary part of God's plan but suffers greatly due to sin. To say that if one spouse does all the "right" things, pray (from a distance if need be) etc, then the abuser or abandoner will come around. But this does not happen. There are no twelve steps to make God make a spouse into a loving partner.
Some scripture seems very black and white, yet there are times when even God has said, enough is enough.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 7:59:01 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
If you are using that teaching as a basis on which to reject Christanity, you are rejecting Christianity based on a teaching that almost all Christian churches have also rejected.
Let's clarify that: MANY OF TODAY's Christians(not the early Christians, who are probably grieved as the Lord at what we are doing to the institution that He compares His relationship to the Church with)..............
I think we all know what the Word of God speaks in regards to those of the "last days" who profess to know Him, but by their works of lawlessness, deny Him(II Tim. 3 even speaks of covenant breakers). I would much rather be with the "few" who are trying to honor and obey the Lord in following His commandments as best as I know them, than to follow the masses who say obedience does not matter----that we can willfully sin and Grace covers that, no matter what the Word of God says to the contrary.
In light of what Jesus and Paul both speak on adulterous lifestyles and the eternal implications of continuing in such, it is very unwise to not take seriously what the Word of God says on this issue and give comfort where God does not give comfort. We need to guard ourselves from proclaiming, "peace, peace" where there is NO peace with God due to unrepentant sin. The Lord desires us to forsake our sin so that we WOULD have peace with Him.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 8:11:34 AM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
This really is a tricky situation. Marriage is a holy and necessary part of God's plan but suffers greatly due to sin. To say that if one spouse does all the "right" things, pray (from a distance if need be) etc, then the abuser or abandoner will come around. But this does not happen. There are no twelve steps to make God make a spouse into a loving partner.
Some scripture seems very black and white, yet there are times when even God has said, enough is enough.
There is nothing to promise us that someone will turn from their sin and follow God---including our children. If it takes too long, do we then give up praying for repentance? I'm curious, where does God say in His Word, "enough is enough"? Are we to go by "voices" that we hear even if they are opposed to His Word? If God's Word teaches us to "endure to the end", "love NEVER fails", pray without ceasing, how does "give up on that one and move on to another" fit with all else that we see in His Word to us?
It is black and white...............but there is a heart behind the "black and white" and His heart is focused on ETERNAL good, not the temporal. We focus on the here and now.........on the "good" and "bad" and many times MISS what God desires to do IN US through our trials. When we OBEY Him through our trials, we grow in HIM. When we disobey, we grow farther away from Him and do not represent Him in likeness. It is His desire that while we are on this earth that we continuing growing and look more and more like Him. If we stumble and head off in the wrong direction, it is His desire that we SEE where we are going, desire to go in the RIGHT direction and then turn around and CHOOSE to go in the right direction, becoming more and more like Him as we walk down the road HE has chosen for us---hard as that may be.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:41:13 AM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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I'm sure many think the permanency of marriage belief is hypocritical/pharisaical, etc, if they have divorced and are of the mindset that the original marriage they were in is dissolved due to a divorce and want to or have "moved on".
The problem lies in dealing or not dealing with what GOD says. Many focus on what they want to believe and then get irritated with those who want to focus on what GOD says and what our response should be to what GOD SAYS as Christians (Christ followers). When we have a person who is divorced against their will or one who may have divorced out of ignorance, fleshly response to actions of their spouse, etc, but has come to the understanding that divorce does NOT dissolve what God joined together, what do we do with THEM???
well you tell us. what DO you do with them? is it your place to DO anything with them? who put YOU in charge of them?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 11:54:44 AM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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lastblust...i briefly clicked on your links .....they contains some off the wall stuff...unBiblical advice.......people gloating in that they left a second mate without warning (and most likely some children)...i highly doubt they are honest in these stories, or they are honestly confused. Few if any agree with such ridiculous notions. These people are describing walking out on a mate without warning cause it honors God. Sick stuff. Even those highly against divorce for any reason wouldnt agree with this nonsense. ICK
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 11:59:15 AM
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Roberta_
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I get confused on some of the stances of those who agree with lastblast, et al.
Do you believe that divorce is ok or mandatory for those who are in second marriages?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:46:05 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
Posts: 131
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I get confused on some of the stances of those who agree with lastblast, et al.
Do you believe that divorce is ok or mandatory for those who are in second marriages?
no one agrees with her. i think maybe one more does.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:49:08 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
well you tell us. what DO you do with them? is it your place to DO anything with them? who put YOU in charge of them?
Well, Jesus says we ARE our brother's keeper. I know that flies in the face of those professing Christians who say, if I am in sin, it is MY business(not so says the Lord, for He teaches us that if we would judge ourselves (meaning deal with our own sin), that we would not be judged).............
In the case I presented above, where there are abandoned spouses who DO believe in the permanency of their marriages, I do not leave them alone, but comfort them with the Truth found in God's Word that they ARE correct in their beliefs, no matter WHO comes against them and tells them that their spouse's "new wife/husband" is honored by God as the TRUE spouse. That is what I "do with them". Sorry, but if that offends those who WANT to be divorced...........those who believe that a civil divorce dissolves the marriage GOD joined together, I can not help that. If Jesus tells us that a divorce does NOT dissolve what He joined together, then as a true brother/sister in Christ, it is our obligation to tell them the same message. It is also our responsibility to come alongside those who want to follow the Lord by praying for and continuing to love their spouses while they are in the "far country", hoping they will come to aplace of repentance.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:52:11 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
lastblust...i briefly clicked on your links .....they contains some off the wall stuff...unBiblical advice.......people gloating in that they left a second mate without warning (and most likely some children)...i highly doubt they are honest in these stories, or they are honestly confused. Few if any agree with such ridiculous notions. These people are describing walking out on a mate without warning cause it honors God. Sick stuff. Even those highly against divorce for any reason wouldnt agree with this nonsense. ICK
Again, you keep saying "unbiblical", but I don't see you post scripture which shows it to be unbiblical.
Do you know the story of Ezra 9-10? Repentance REQUIRED the forsaking of forbidden marriages---and yes, there were children involved as well. Do you feel as strongly about original marriages being ripped apart and the children affected horribly by that...........or do you only feel strongly about tearing apart those unions that God has called adultery?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:55:42 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I get confused on some of the stances of those who agree with lastblast, et al.
Do you believe that divorce is ok or mandatory for those who are in second marriages?
I look at a second union contracted while one has a living spouse as adultery----not a marriage joined by God. So, if one is to disentangle (forsake a sinful relationship) themselves from that, yes, divorce would not be sin and would be "required" to show forth the fruits of repentance. For if one is truly ONE Flesh with another person, they should not be continuing to live with a different man/woman.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:57:30 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2934
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I get confused on some of the stances of those who agree with lastblast, et al.
Do you believe that divorce is ok or mandatory for those who are in second marriages?
I personally believe her views are completely unbiblical. For the record, here is what she and others on this forum who support her view believe:
1) All "covenant" marriages causes both spouses to be bound to that marriage for life as long as both spouses live regardless of adultery, abandonment, divorce, remarriage, whether either spouse was or is a believer, whether divorce happened before or after conversion, etc... A marriage is defined as a valid "covenant" marriage if both spouses have never been in a prior "covenant" marriage.
2) "Any spouse that is remarried (according to the state) while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they in repentance abandon the relationship or their original spouse dies. Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly repented."
===================================
For the record, here is a history of the linguistic gymnastics required to arrive at a statement that Keepingfaith, and lastblast would agree fairly represented their beliefs.
Any spouse that is remarried [(according to the state)] while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they [(legally)] divorce [in repentance ][abandon the relationship] or their original spouse dies. [Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly abandoned the relationship [repented.]]
"(According to the state)" was added because Keepingfaith had objected to the idea that a remarriage even existed. Because such a marriage is clearly recognized by the state, I added this clarification so that her objection could be addressed.
"legal" was added because keepingfaith contended that there was no divorce because the marriage never existed. I added this because the state does recognize the marriage and requires a state recognized divorce to resolve it i.e a legal divorce.
"(legal) divorce" was changed to "abandon the relationship" in the sentence about "Hell" because of lastblast's objection i.e. she stated that abandoning the relationship didn't require divorce.
The last sentence was added because lastblast said that (legal) divorce should be an acknowledgment that the relationship was abandoned.
Added "in repentance" to clearly indicate why the relationship was being abandoned, and changed the last "abandoned the relationship" to "repented" for that same reason. (in order to satisfy Keepingfaith's objection. )
< Message edited by benelchi -- 5/19/2008 1:03:33 PM >
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 1:08:29 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6985
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I get confused on some of the stances of those who agree with lastblast, ET AL.
Do you believe that divorce is OK or mandatory for those who are in second marriages?
I look at a second union contracted while one has a living spouse as adultery----not a marriage joined by God. So, if one is to disentangle (forsake a sinful relationship) themselves from that, yes, divorce would not be sin and would be "required" to show forth the fruits of repentance. For if one is truly ONE Flesh with another person, they should not be continuing to live with a different man/woman.
But a divorce would not necessarily change the heart, so there would be no real repentance.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 2:44:34 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
lastblust...i briefly clicked on your links .....they contains some off the wall stuff...unBiblical advice.......people gloating in that they left a second mate without warning (and most likely some children)...i highly doubt they are honest in these stories, or they are honestly confused. Few if any agree with such ridiculous notions. These people are describing walking out on a mate without warning cause it honors God. Sick stuff. Even those highly against divorce for any reason wouldnt agree with this nonsense. ICK
Again, you keep saying "unbiblical", but I don't see you post scripture which shows it to be unbiblical.
why post the same scriptures over and over? we both know what they say. I wouldnt change your mind no matter was posted. we can both read the Bible. we are not going to agree.
Do you know the story of Ezra 9-10? Repentance REQUIRED the forsaking of forbidden marriages---and yes, there were children involved as well. Do you feel as strongly about original marriages being ripped apart and the children affected horribly by that...........or do you only feel strongly about tearing apart those unions that God has called adultery?
I could quote the scripture about us not being under the law, but I think you are familiar with them. You dont dont GET them. It hasnt sank in yet that we do NOTHING to earn salvation. I pray it does, for I was once like that. I discovered grace (by grace!)..Praise Him for that!!!. read the NT verses on being under grace, not law. Perhaps those will help. You need to acquaint yourself with grace. its "amazing". 
< Message edited by TATERBUGLETTE -- 5/19/2008 2:54:41 PM >
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:02:55 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7679
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of Divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:25:52 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6985
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
lastblust...i briefly clicked on your links .....they contains some off the wall stuff...unBiblical advice.......people gloating in that they left a second mate without warning (and most likely some children)...i highly doubt they are honest in these stories, or they are honestly confused. Few if any agree with such ridiculous notions. These people are describing walking out on a mate without warning cause it honors God. Sick stuff. Even those highly against divorce for any reason wouldnt agree with this nonsense. ICK
Again, you keep saying "unbiblical", but I don't see you post scripture which shows it to be unbiblical.
Do you know the story of Ezra 9-10? Repentance REQUIRED the forsaking of forbidden marriages---and yes, there were children involved as well. Do you feel as strongly about original marriages being ripped apart and the children affected horribly by that...........or do you only feel strongly about tearing apart those unions that God has called adultery?
I haven't read Ezra in quite a while. I'll reread it sometime in the next few days or so.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:52:55 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
But a divorce would not necessarily change the heart, so there would be no real repentance.
If someone got to the point of getting out of an adulterous union, their heart WOULD be towards God, no? In a society where people come and go in marriage----especially in professing Churches, to get out of a "marriage" God has declared adultery, but many churches support, would indicate such a person would be following God, not man, so their heart WOULD be repentant...........it does not mean they would be "happy" having to leave such a relationship though. Many things we do in repentance do not bring us "happy" feelings, but they bring us peace with God.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 4:07:05 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
I could quote the scripture about us not being under the law, but I think you are familiar with them. You dont dont GET them. It hasnt sank in yet that we do NOTHING to earn salvation. I pray it does, for I was once like that. I discovered grace (by grace!)..Praise Him for that!!!. read the NT verses on being under grace, not law. Perhaps those will help. You need to acquaint yourself with grace. its "amazing".
Yes, I am very well acquainted with God's amazing Grace as I was not "churched" before becoming born again. I was VERY much in the world, tater and know I did not do anything to receive salvation, nor can anyone.
So, it is not His Grace I do not understand, it is man's misuse/abuse of His Grace to justify disobedience that I don't understand. I guess because I was saved from SOOOO much, I can't understand the mentality that we can willfully reject God's commands and think we are truly following Him, when in fact we are following our flesh. He paid a GREAT price so that we would not be in bondage to our flesh (and elevating self above the kingdom of God is being in bondage to flesh).............He did not pay the price just so we could go to heaven.............He died so that we could have the power to LIVE like HIM in THIS life.
Concerning obedience, Paul teaches: "Circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (I Cor. 7:19) This is several verses after Paul is telling that God commands a woman who departs from her husband to REMAIN UNMARRIED(or be reconciled to him) and also commands a husband not to divorce his wife. What do you think of this? Does it matter if we ignore these commands? Does it affect our relationship to the Lord and to others in the body of Christ? Shouldn't a disobedient heart/mind give one cause to question whether they are truly born again or not? It seems Paul says exactly that..........that we are to "test" ourselves to see if we are in the faith. How does one "test" themself? We all can "profess" to believe this or that, but is our faith genuine........so genuine that our lives reflect what we say we believe?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 8:56:43 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
Posts: 131
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
well you tell us. what DO you do with them? is it your place to DO anything with them? who put YOU in charge of them?
Well, Jesus says we ARE our brother's keeper. I know that flies in the face of those professing Christians who say, if I am in sin, it is MY business(not so says the Lord, for He teaches us that if we would judge ourselves (meaning deal with our own sin), that we would not be judged).............
In the case I presented above, where there are abandoned spouses who DO believe in the permanency of their marriages, I do not leave them alone, but comfort them with the Truth found in God's Word that they ARE correct in their beliefs, no matter WHO comes against them and tells them that their spouse's "new wife/husband" is honored by God as the TRUE spouse. That is what I "do with them". Sorry, but if that offends those who WANT to be divorced...........those who believe that a civil divorce dissolves the marriage GOD joined together, I can not help that. If Jesus tells us that a divorce does NOT dissolve what He joined together, then as a true brother/sister in Christ, it is our obligation to tell them the same message. It is also our responsibility to come alongside those who want to follow the Lord by praying for and continuing to love their spouses while they are in the "far country", hoping they will come to aplace of repentance.
What if they have already had a child with the second husband? What do they do with that little one?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:34:29 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
What if they have already had a child with the second husband? What do they do with that little one?
I don't understand your question? Of course EVERY parent is responsible to take care of their children, whether that child is a product of pre-marital relations, marital relations, or adulterous relations.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:34:22 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
What if they have already had a child with the second husband? What do they do with that little one?
I don't understand your question? Of course EVERY parent is responsible to take care of their children, whether that child is a product of pre-marital relations, marital relations, or adulterous relations.
SO you are saying they are to break up the home of that innocent child...another family down the tubes? is that what you are saying?
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