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uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 5:44:18 PM)

this question has been asked but not in the way you asked. good question!! i asked the purpose of this gift in today's church and of course no answer from a contextual sense. i believe the gift's purpose isn't meant for today's church. it was designed for the birthing of the church into many nations therefore the use of tongues was necessary to spread the Gospel. paul was scolding the church for their misuse of the gifts. the church was still just a baby and needed some guidance. paul was offering that guidance. the church was obviously using this gift improperly--much like some would claim to do today. this gift seems to be given more importance than others, but paul when listing the gifts, listed it last (maybe to not add more emphasis than needed--maybe not) i've listed things before and the list wasn't meant to be from most important to least important, but i'm also not inspired by God to write the Holy Scriptures and paul was. good question though, i'll be looking for their answer.
quote:

ORIGINAL: amsent

I believe there is a question that hasn't been asked before, at least on this forum. Why were the Corinthians speaking in tongues? And if this was under the lead of the Holy Spirit, why would Paul be rebuking them for it's usage. Just some food for thought since the same thing is going on here in this discussion. Anyone care to take a stab at it because the passages from Corinthians is used as a backer for tongues.

So I will ask this question again sense there doesn't seem to be an answer from those who speak in tongues. And I issue this challenge to them. Give us an interpretation of a tongue spoken in your assembly and to what purpose it was given. Tongues on the day of Pentecost had purpose and the tongues spoken at Corinth speak for themselves. So beyond the "private prayer language" give us a purpose to the congregation and then tell us why it is done without any interpreter in most cases.

Amsent for truth



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 9:00:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

what do you think the disciples were preaching in tongues? obviously it was the Gospel!!...



uthguy4lyf,

Would you be so kind as to furnish some Scripture where the disciples were preaching in tongues?


Thanks
RC



oo7 -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 9:04:43 PM)

My, you folks have been busy, so many interesting opinions. Pastor James, you and I agree more than we disagree. Your comment on my comment about the Patriarchs is true. However they had the benefit of Jesus visiting them in His pre advent glory, many people are under the opinion that there was no real power in those days like the Holy Spirit. He or It was there, the trinity existed then, it is a fascinating study; those were the days of Incredible power and Manifestations of Gods presents among the people, and yet they still rebelled. Think about it for a moment, how many different languages were there in Abraham's time, quite a few. Do you honestly think that Abraham learned all of them without Gods help, being there were none of the conveniences that we have today for the infusion of knowledge?,, I don't. The Spirit of Christ, or God, or what ever you call it, had the same ability back then to give whatever gift was needed at the time. And what an amazing time that was to be alive, but yet tongues is not recorded; but then if all of the ancient Bible history were recorded, we would not be able to read all of the books that all the many library's would be filled with. And in some instances, the Bible is not very clear, which brings me to my second point.

I am sticking to my comment I made about Paul simply because he had so many problems with so many of His new Church's. If it wasn't the Jews who were causing problems over one of the laws of Moses, it was backsliders in another who were going off in some wild tangent. My personal opinion is that the letters to the Corinthians were probably read by other churches as well, and visa versa, Paul was no fool. He had people helping him from all over, and since the Corinthian church was one of the biggies, it was a bustling hub of worldwide commerce, a degraded culture in the middle of an idolatrous region. This Church was called out of a pagan society. First off the Greeks in the Corinth church were sue happy factional people, that had problems with shady business dealing, immorality, abusing the Lords supper, and spiritual gifts, of which tongues is a part. And being it was a
"2" seaport city, one only need a fertile imagination as to what went on. These facts are well documented in numerous religious history books, of which I am looking at one right now as I write this. Paul had so many doctrinal issues to deal with here, it's a wonder he didn't write a 3rd Corinthians letter.

Paul was finding it difficult to keep "Corinth" out of the Church, so he felt the need to write these disciplinary letters. I mean the poor man had to deal with fornication, and incest and divorce; then the problems that cropped up over the issue of eating meat offered to idols. The list is seemingly endless; so do I believe he was having troubles with tongues..., you bet I do. But you are welcome to your opinion, but we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

I do believe in the gift of tongues, but to me they just gotta be real. Thanks for your post, I find them well thought out.

Rick



lecoop -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/13/2006 10:46:17 PM)

There was several mentions of something here that I want to comment on. First, we know that it is God's will that all come to salvation. He is not willing that any should perish. Correct? So God's will is for all to come and accept Jesus as savior. Now, if someone (or millions of someones) have knowledge of salvation, i.e. they know something about it, that Jesus died for them, but they believe that if God wanted them saved, then God would save them - but they made no effort to seek God out or no effort to repent, and left it all up to God, how many with this attitude would ever become born again? We all know the answer is zip, none! Why? Because God does not work this way. He gave every human a free will, and expects us to use it. The Holy Spirit can tug at someone to get saved, but until they make some effort towards God, nothing will happen, except their heart will grow slightly harder.

Therefore, why would people make such a statement on this thread, that if God wanted them to have something, God would just do it. Listen: it seldom or ever happens that way. Paul said salvation comes through belief in our heart and confession with our mouth. In fact, this is the way all things are received from God. Never count on God just giving you something because it is his will for you to have it. He has already given us ALL THINGS that relate to life and Godliness. However, "given" and "possession" are two different things. God has given us all things, but we have not received all things.

Amsent said
quote:

I believe there is a question that hasn't been asked before, at least on this forum. Why were the Corinthians speaking in tongues? And if this was under the lead of the Holy Spirit, why would Paul be rebuking them for it's usage. Just some food for thought since the same thing is going on here in this discussion. Anyone care to take a stab at it because the passages from Corinthians is used as a backer for tongues.


First, why were the Corinthians speaking in tongues? This is easy. Because they had received the baptism with the HS, and the tongues came as icing on the cake, so to speak. So they spoke in tongues because they could. Now, having said that - they also spoke in tongues because it is so enjoyable. Peter said that this was the "rest." It is the rivers of living water that flow out. It edifies and frankly, feels good. When they ran out of prayers in their learned language, they just continued in tongues. Yes, probably in every case, the HS was giving the utterance. Please look closely at these verses:

quote:

1 Cor 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


Notice that there are "gifts" and "administrations," and "operations." The "gifts" are controled by the Holy Spirit; the administrations are under the control of the Lord Jesus, and the "operations" are under the control of God the Father. I will leave it up to someone else to decide which of the nine gifts are called administrations and operations. All I will say is that the three gifts to speak supernaturally are under the control of the HS. I.E., Tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy, and that these three are sort of under our will: i.e. whenever we choose to do it, the Holy Spirit backs us up. We cannot say this about the gifts to act supernaturally, or know supernaturally. For these, we just have to wait for God to do it. for instance, we cannot just "turn on" the gift of knowledge of the gift of wisdom.

Now, what does this mean? It means first off, that anyone can use these three gifts to speak supernaturally. They are not limited to certain people. Now, before you shout me down, follow along. No, all people may not give a message in tongues, but God has given to all the pontential to have a prayer language through the baptism with the HS. What about prophecy? Can all prophecy? Paul said, "But if all prophesy;" and "For ye may all prophesy one by one." Did I read that wrong? Paul said that we all may prophecy!

This part, I cannot explain, but I know it is true. Whenever I choose to speak in tongues, the HS is always ready to give the utterance, even if it is during a sermon, and the wrong time to speak in tongues! However, I can pray in tongues to myself at this time and no one around me knows.

So why were the Corinthians speaking in tongues? Because the HS was giving them utterance. But they did not have any knowledge about the purposes and intents of the HS on how to use the tongues that they had been given. Paul gives them correction and instruction. Many churches today need correction and instruction also. Beginners that just have received the baptism with the HS, and just started speaking in tongues need teaching on how to use them. Paul was not rebuking them for speaking in tongues, else he would have told them to quit. He was giving them correction on how and when to use them.

Coop



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 8:44:35 AM)

i believe the reference made here is speaking of the Gospel, maybe i'm wrong, but the wonderful works of God would have been the Gospel message to people that were once considered dogs. it would seem as though that would be the wonderful works referred to here. once again, i admit i could be wrong
Acts 2:11
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was F3 noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

what do you think the disciples were preaching in tongues? obviously it was the Gospel!!...



uthguy4lyf,

Would you be so kind as to furnish some Scripture where the disciples were preaching in tongues?


Thanks
RC



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 9:07:38 AM)

here are some others scriptures that would also show that it was in reagrds to preaching the Gospel. prophesy isn't to be seen as the foretelling only but also as the forthtelling which is what the TBN theologians usually misinterpret. the gift was given to further the spread of the Gospel according to these verses. the problem lies in that "loopy" preachers don't understand that prophesy isn't for show and tell about their gifts, but rather to spread the Gospel. the purpose we are here isn't to exercise our gifts to show off or any other reason than to equip and encourage the saints, to spread the Good news.

Ac 2:17 - Show Context
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ac 2:18 - Show Context
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Ro 12:6 - Show Context
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1Co 14:1 - Show Context
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Re 10:11 - Show Context
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

what do you think the disciples were preaching in tongues? obviously it was the Gospel!!...



uthguy4lyf,

Would you be so kind as to furnish some Scripture where the disciples were preaching in tongues?


Thanks
RC



BenQuebec -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 10:11:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

this is the very thing that creates such confusion. there is only one interpretation of the bible.


I understand your point of view, but respectfully disagree, although perhaps this is more of a misunderstanding than a disagreement.

For the record, I do believe there to be more than one valid interpretation of proper use of tongues, simply because the Bible is not 100% clear on this issue. In other areas in which the Bible is 100% clear, there would be only one valid interpretation.

Tying this back into the topic, I believe that the reason there is so much disagreement on this issue is that people believe there is only one valid interpretation, and they have it.

I would agree that there is only one true 100% God-ordained interpretation on the topic of tongues, but I also believe that God hasn't revealed that single true 100% God-ordained interpretation to us in the Bible. Thus, going by Scripture alone, we find ambiguity, and IMHO must realize that more than one interpretation of Scripture may be valid on the issue of tongues.

Thus, this is only my opinion folks, but I believe that although there is one single true interpretation on tongues, it is not found in the Bible. Many people with extra-biblical revelation claim to have found this single true interpretation of tongues, but they don't all agree with each other. Thus, I can only trust what the Bible says on the issue, and if the Bible only gives us half the picture, I have to be willing to forgive my brother if he fills in the other half differently than I do.



bobservations -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 11:00:12 AM)

Ben, if you are correct, and I wouldn't dispute what you have posted, this is all the more reason not to even begin speaking in tongues. Jesus concern for us is how we love our fellow man. This is the determing factor in whether we are serving Him.

I am not a psychiatrist, but I can not see how my sub-conscious (or whatever state of mind we are in), can do a better job relating my thoughts than I can do when I am fully conscious. I have been told that people counterfeit speaking in tongues. We would have no way of knowing and it could harm the church.

This would be a great study, do churches really benefit, do they show more spiritual growth, how about growth in membership,do they have fewer problems, are they more active in serving mankind, is there more love shown between members, are more prayers answered and etc. when groups speak in tongues verses groups that do not?



cjwpastor -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 11:10:56 AM)

uthguy,

To echo Ben to some extent, I would have to disagree with your use of the phrase "only one interpretation." There may indeed be only one interpretation, but in areas that are not definitive such as tongues and many others, there is in practice numerous interpretations and applications. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I might add.

Take for example the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is a pillar of the Christian faith and IMO requires and demands a literal interpretion as it is stated in the gospels and elsewhere. For someone to deviate from this interpretation causes red flags to go up in my mind. Now, due to the fact that the Bible does not clearly state whether or not tongues is THE initial evidence of Spirit baptism (and teaches that it is as definite and sure as salvation is byelieving in Christ) then naturally there are going to be various interpretations of those passages of Scripture which speak to the issue in a round-about (or narrative) way.

People have claimed to have THE one and only correct interpretation throughout church history and it has not been pretty. Take the Inquisition, the Crusades, slavery, racism and subjugation of women as just some examples of taking a fundamentalist, I-am-right-and-all-others-are-wrong kind of postion with Scripture. This, IMO, flies in the face of what all Biblical authors stress is the greatest and most important thing: love.

What do you think of my suggestion that if the Bible was definitive in this area that it would create a Christian culture of egoists and elitists by making a "standard" for spirituality - and that standard being tongues can be something easily faked? Any thoughts?

In Christ,
Chad



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 11:34:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uthguy4lyf

here are some others scriptures that would also show that it was in reagrds to preaching the Gospel. prophesy isn't to be seen as the foretelling only but also as the forthtelling which is what the TBN theologians usually misinterpret. the gift was given to further the spread of the Gospel according to these verses. the problem lies in that "loopy" preachers don't understand that prophesy isn't for show and tell about their gifts, but rather to spread the Gospel. the purpose we are here isn't to exercise our gifts to show off or any other reason than to equip and encourage the saints, to spread the Good news.





uthguy4lyf,

How in the world did TBN, "loopy preachers, and "showing off" get into this discussion about the Gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit?

Thanks
RC



BenQuebec -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 11:54:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

uthguy4lyf,

How in the world did TBN, "loopy preachers, and "showing off" get into this discussion about the Gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit?


Perhaps he meant that TBN is known for featuring "loopy" preachers that over-emphasize tongues and use them improperly (showing off). I very rarely watch TBN, so I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. But yeah, I agree. TBN does seem a bit off-topic. At any rate...

I've really enjoyed this discussion so far, folks.

Uthguy4lyf, I'm looking forward to reading your comments about what Bob, CJW and I posted.



amsent -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/14/2006 10:09:09 PM)

For those who say that the Corinthians were filled with the spirit and speaking in tongues was the evidence of His infilling, I have one question.
If they were under the lead of the Holy Spirit, How come Paul was admonishing them for their outbreaks and use of tongues. Was not Paul a chosen apostle and do you not think that He would have been aware of the schism in Corinth caused by the tongues and other things that were not showing the fruit of the spirit. In other words, if their actions were correct by the spirit, how come Paul was interfereing?

Amsent For Truth



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/15/2006 9:03:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amsent

For those who say that the Corinthians were filled with the spirit and speaking in tongues was the evidence of His infilling, I have one question.
If they were under the lead of the Holy Spirit, How come Paul was admonishing them for their outbreaks and use of tongues. Was not Paul a chosen apostle and do you not think that He would have been aware of the schism in Corinth caused by the tongues and other things that were not showing the fruit of the spirit. In other words, if their actions were correct by the spirit, how come Paul was interfereing?

Amsent For Truth


Paul was not interferring, he was giving instructions; in the same way that he gave instructions in the manner which the Lord's Supper was to be done in the eleventh chapter of the same letter. In the same manner that he gave instructions on a myriad of subjects to many Churches.

Thanks
RC.



amsent -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/15/2006 3:36:55 PM)

So now we have the Apostle giving instruction in the outpouring of the spirit. The extent that some will go to to deny the truth that sits before them.

Does not the scripture say that it is the Holy spirit who guides and directs you into all truth. Does it not say that He will take what the Father has given to the son for us and instruct us in it's meaning and operation.
That is somewhat of a paraphrase so for those of you who would jump on the wording forget it.

With the anointing that Paul had, why would it be that He would need to intsruct Them in the spirit when it is the Spirit that gives the instruction. I'm still trying to fathom the logic behind that statement. If what is said were true, then how come those who blurt out in tongues in the assembly, won't receive instruction, for they are as much out of order as the Corinthians were. There is always a but to try and justify the wrong, but truth needs no bolstering up. I don't acept the arguement that you can control the spirit and speak when you feel like it for it lacks purpose. Feelings are one of the things that we are warned agains't and if you are relying totally on feelings and emotions you are a prime canidate for being deceived. Just like Eve.

In the book of Ezekeil, He is told to eat the scroll and it was sweet going down. The scroll and it's sweetness are the understanding and truth of the word. It thenn becomes bitter when you must give it to a people who won't hear, just as it says in Ezekeil. They seek to discredit and belittle you to no avail. The understanding behind eating the scroll is to have all the word in your heart and only in this way will you not be deceived but the alluring words of men and manifestations. Understand this, Satan has the God gvien ability to perform signs and wonders too to test the metal of the true christians. If you are so easily deceived by the manifestation of a tongue without purpose to the spirit, then God help us.
NExt you will believe that He is the Christ when the words tells us in no uncertain terms not to fall for it. There is the truth in the word to support this statement but it has to come to pas as written. The falling away and the tongues that are most manifest in the church are a part of that falling away. There is a true tongue and God will give it for his purpose as He did on the day of pentecost.

Amsent for truth



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/15/2006 4:38:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amsent

So now we have the Apostle giving instruction in the outpouring of the spirit. The extent that some will go to to deny the truth that sits before them.

Amsent for truth


(2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All Scripture includes the writings of Paul. It seems as though you are spoiling for a fight of some sort, or at least trying to degrade the discussion to something that it probably should not be; and I for one will not accomadate you.

Have a great day.

Thanks
RC



bobservations -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/15/2006 9:04:32 PM)

rc my friend, I posted up the way and no one bit on my questions. I respect your thoughts. You are a straight shooter. Would you care to comment on the following questions concerning the benefit of speaking in tongues?

When groups speak in tongues, verses groups that do not, do they really:
--Show more spiritual growth?
--Have more growth in membership?
--Have fewer problems?
--show more activity in serving mankind?
--Show more love between members?
--Have more prayers answered?

Maybe comparisons have never been done and these questions can't be answered. It would really be interesting to know especially because of the controversy. A point could certainly be proven.

Peace, boB



BenQuebec -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/15/2006 10:17:12 PM)

Bob,

For the record, I didn't comment on your questions, simply because I agree that it would indeed be fascinating to see them answered. And the point that they can't be answered (until we get to heaven) makes one ponder.

-BenQ



amsent -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/15/2006 10:56:51 PM)

No RCjames this isn't about a confrontation but about the souls of those who will believe without the need to SEE. The master said blessed are they who believe and have not seen, signs and wonders. If you will believe the little lie, you will fall for the big lie that is coming. We can't have people condemning themselves because they think that they must speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit and this is what the doctrine does to new believers. They go chasing after the manifestation rather than the one who gives eternal life. Trying to get to Him anyway but through the door that He said you must enter in by. The truth is that the fruit of the Spirit show His presence and they will remain. Store up for yourself treasures in heaven that moth and rot cannot destroy. Tonuges will cease. When you enter your grave, quess what, your tongue has ceased. Eternal life won't .

Amsent for Truth



rcjames -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 8:30:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobservations

rc my friend, I posted up the way and no one bit on my questions. I respect your thoughts. You are a straight shooter. Would you care to comment on the following questions concerning the benefit of speaking in tongues?

When groups speak in tongues, verses groups that do not, do they really:
--Show more spiritual growth?
--Have more growth in membership?
--Have fewer problems?
--show more activity in serving mankind?
--Show more love between members?

Maybe comparisons have never been done and these questions can't be answered. It would really be interesting to know especially because of the controversy. A point could certainly be proven.

Peace, boB


bobservations,

I will be glad to give my opinion on your questions. I am really trying not to 'hog" this thread, just because I have the time to do so at this point.

First I will take exception to the discussion about tongues being tagged as "controversy", it is just a discussion about one of the many non-redemptive things that Believers can and do disagree on.

quote:

"--Have more prayers answered?"


Absolutely, When the Spirit prayes for us, He is praying the will of God.

(Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(Rom 8:27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And the Scripture tells us that if we pray the will of God, we will have what we ask;

(1Jo 5:14) And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

(1Jo 5:15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Yes, praying in the Holy Spirit will not just get more answers; Scripture states that the prayer will be answered every time.

quote:

--Show more spiritual growth?
--Have more growth in membership?
--Have fewer problems?
--show more activity in serving mankind?
--Show more love between members?
--Have more prayers answered?


In my opinion, growth in membership, fewer problems, and more activity in serving mankind, and more love between members are all related to Spiritual growth. I believe that Spiritual growth comes through faith; hence the more one is built up in their faith, the more growth, fewer problems, more servant activity and more love between members.

How is one way to build up your faith?

(Jud 1:20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

So yes, I am of the opinion that all the things you listed can and do benefit from praying in the Holy Spirit.

Thanks
RC



figmentPez -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 1:40:15 PM)

quote:

So yes, I am of the opinion that all the things you listed can and do benefit from praying in the Holy Spirit.


But is praying in the Holy Spirit the same thing as speaking in tongues? Can one pray in the Spirit without praying in tongues? Personally, I think that prayer in the Spirit must be possible without praying in tongues, because

Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

If we are to make all our prayers and petitions in the Spirit, then why would Christ have instructed us on how to pray using human language? Why would be the Lord's prayer be so thoughtful, if our petitions to God are supposed to be made in tongues we don't understand?



cjwpastor -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 2:56:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

quote:

So yes, I am of the opinion that all the things you listed can and do benefit from praying in the Holy Spirit.


But is praying in the Holy Spirit the same thing as speaking in tongues? Can one pray in the Spirit without praying in tongues? Personally, I think that prayer in the Spirit must be possible without praying in tongues, because

Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

If we are to make all our prayers and petitions in the Spirit, then why would Christ have instructed us on how to pray using human language? Why would be the Lord's prayer be so thoughtful, if our petitions to God are supposed to be made in tongues we don't understand?



Precisely, figment. If praying "in the Spirit" is ONLY praying in tongues, then Paul's exhortation to pray at all times in the Spirit would require that all prayer be in tongues. Therefore, the conclusion we must draw from this is that praying in the Spirit is something other than praying in tongues (although praying in tongues can involve praying in the Spirit).

Although I am not oppossed to a personal "prayer language" as it is often called, I do often question it's worth. Paul says to pray with understanding - we should therefore take that to mean praying with the mind and spirit both engaged. But if we grant the validity of a prayer language, then I would question its worth. Scripture is mostly silent on this subject and whatever "benefits" and advantages that are derived from this are primarily the constructs of man. The thing that troubles me the most though is that it seems to always be the easy way out. What I mean by that is prayer in the Spirit, prayer that is truly engaging and meaningful, is hard work. By its very nature it is hard work and takes discipline to do. Prayer in tongues, on the other hand, seems to me based on the testimonies of those who do it is a "fall back" or an easy way out of having to really "sweat" it out and prayer through something. I would admit that it would be far easier to simply disengage my mind and just spout something off with the self-assurance that the Holy Spirit will take care of whatever it is that I just said and bring about God's will (completely absent of my understanding) then it would be to lock myself in a prayer closet, humble myself before God and begin to talk to Him as a child seeking His will and trying to articulate my thoughts, feelings and struggles in a way that makes sense. That requires work and it requires discipine - something of which I see lacking in this fall back method of praying in tongues.

Chad



BenQuebec -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 3:18:26 PM)

Great post, Chad.



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 4:14:03 PM)

ben, i agree that we disagree on interpretation of scripture, but if one could say the bible is unclear here and unclear there then who is to determine when the unclearness stops. i choose to allow the bible to interpret the bible. the verses are clear and understandable, not saying that i understand the whole bible, but it is not unclear regarding our topic. this interpretation issue is another thread for another day, but it's important to our discussion. i enjoy this type of discussion....

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobservations

Ben, if you are correct, and I wouldn't dispute what you have posted, this is all the more reason not to even begin speaking in tongues. Jesus concern for us is how we love our fellow man. This is the determing factor in whether we are serving Him.

I am not a psychiatrist, but I can not see how my sub-conscious (or whatever state of mind we are in), can do a better job relating my thoughts than I can do when I am fully conscious. I have been told that people counterfeit speaking in tongues. We would have no way of knowing and it could harm the church.

This would be a great study, do churches really benefit, do they show more spiritual growth, how about growth in membership,do they have fewer problems, are they more active in serving mankind, is there more love shown between members, are more prayers answered and etc. when groups speak in tongues verses groups that do not?



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 4:18:01 PM)

yes, ben that is what i meant, thank you for understanding my post.
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenQuebec

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

uthguy4lyf,

How in the world did TBN, "loopy preachers, and "showing off" get into this discussion about the Gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit?


Perhaps he meant that TBN is known for featuring "loopy" preachers that over-emphasize tongues and use them improperly (showing off). I very rarely watch TBN, so I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. But yeah, I agree. TBN does seem a bit off-topic. At any rate...

I've really enjoyed this discussion so far, folks.

Uthguy4lyf, I'm looking forward to reading your comments about what Bob, CJW and I posted.



uthguy4lyf -> RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread (1/16/2006 4:32:24 PM)

i'm not sure of the question but i will take a stab in the dark at understanding your point... are you saying that if the bible is literally interpretted with one definitive interpretation then there would be a culture that would be right and wrong. i agree with this idea and i don't understand what would be wrong with being right/wrong??
it doesn't make you superior to be right. it doesn't make you inferior to be wrong. we are in a process and some have learned what others are still learning. how does that make one an elitist? we are to love one another, even if they are right/wrong...i don't believe the standard is tongues...our standard is Christ and Him alone. i have not stated that tongues is the standard so i don't understand that part of your question, but if someone states tongues is the standard then they are definitely wrong
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjwpastor

uthguy,

To echo Ben to some extent, I would have to disagree with your use of the phrase "only one interpretation." There may indeed be only one interpretation, but in areas that are not definitive such as tongues and many others, there is in practice numerous interpretations and applications. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I might add.

Take for example the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is a pillar of the Christian faith and IMO requires and demands a literal interpretion as it is stated in the gospels and elsewhere. For someone to deviate from this interpretation causes red flags to go up in my mind. Now, due to the fact that the Bible does not clearly state whether or not tongues is THE initial evidence of Spirit baptism (and teaches that it is as definite and sure as salvation is byelieving in Christ) then naturally there are going to be various interpretations of those passages of Scripture which speak to the issue in a round-about (or narrative) way.

People have claimed to have THE one and only correct interpretation throughout church history and it has not been pretty. Take the Inquisition, the Crusades, slavery, racism and subjugation of women as just some examples of taking a fundamentalist, I-am-right-and-all-others-are-wrong kind of postion with Scripture. This, IMO, flies in the face of what all Biblical authors stress is the greatest and most important thing: love.

What do you think of my suggestion that if the Bible was definitive in this area that it would create a Christian culture of egoists and elitists by making a "standard" for spirituality - and that standard being tongues can be something easily faked? Any thoughts?

In Christ,
Chad



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