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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2006 10:28:15 PM
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manwe
Posts: 190
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I wouldn't say this is missionary tongues since you spoke to believers instead of unbelievers. Also you did not understand them back so...I am not sure it fits.
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2006 1:03:52 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
The only need others have told me for a prayer language is for edification. but what i say is, if other gifts are greater, then they also have greater edification. i once prayed for the gift of prayer language, because of the results someone told me it had(ie: the person felt so close to God when they had the experience) Then it clicked while I Cor 13. Love, mercy, giving, teaching, prophecy, understanding are all greater than tongues, and the greatest is love. I no longer cared for the gift of tongues. Other gifts (if they are actualy greater, and they are) will give me (and also others) more edification thana personal prayer language can. . .which by the way doesn't satisfy the church bodies(collective) which was the problem in I Cor 14.
There is no support for using tongues personally without understanding. Were the ones that need understanding, not God. He doesn't need audible words to understand us, he created us.
I have better edification through other gifts. It is the infilling of the HS that sends us the comfort, not the tongues. Just as it was the infilling of the HS that engaged the disples on the day of pentecost, and not the cloven tongues of fire or spoken tongues. They are for a sign.
In 1 Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14 Paul is dealing with ministry issues. In chapter 12 he gives us the gifts of the Spirit which are given for ministry. Then in chapter 13 he tells us about the correct motivation for ministry and finally in chapter 14 he gives us some guidelines for ministry in the assembly. Also just because love is greater that doesn't make the rest of the gifts useless as you seem to be saying. You said, "There is no support for using tongues personally without understanding." Paul said, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" and "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." and But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Even though Paul said he would rather prophesy in the church he obviously still felt it was important since he told them that he spoke in tongues more than all of them. The purpose of praying in tongues (not to be confused with tongues followed by an interpretation) is edification or building up of the one praying.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The idea of "groanings which cannot be uttered" is simply when you have no words of understanding to express what you are feeling deep inside.
Jude 20-2120
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Also you can't understand the blessing and edification of tongues if you don't have them, but the Bible is clear that they do edify the one praying.
quote:
Question: Why are cloven tongues of fire and spoken tongues mentioned as signs of the Baptism of the HS and only spoken tongues are still around?
The "cloven tongues like as of fire" were only mentioned once in Acts 2 during the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The spoken tongues are mentioned several times after Pentecost. Also it states that these same tongues sat upon each of those present and that they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. Why is it so hard for you to believe that Jesus is still doing this today?
Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Jesus told the disciples that they woud receive power after they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. Now for a long time after I had been baptized with the Holy Spirit (with tongues) I did buy into the teaching that it was all about power to preach, witness, heal the sick or cast out devils because from what I read they had done all of these things before Pentecost. For over ten years I prayed and asked God what the "power" was really all about. I knew the power was real because I could feel it plus I could see it in the lives of others but I couldn't pin down what it was. Then one day I was reading Ephesians 3:14-21 and I realized that this passage is what the baptism with the Holy Spirit is all about. In verse 16 the Greek word for "might" is the same word Jesus used in Acts 1:8 for "power".
Luke 24:49
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:5, 8
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Ephesians 3:14-21
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 12:33:32 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Question: Why are cloven tongues of fire and spoken tongues mentioned as signs of the Baptism of the HS and only spoken tongues are still around?
Jesus says that those who believe in Him will "speak in new tongues" (Mark 16:17).
The word "new" means appearing for the first time. No one had spoken these languages before.
Contrary to bad theology tongues is not an ability given to preach the gospel in the language of foreigners.
This would make tongues "old" languages.
It is only appropriate that those of the “new birth” should speak “new tongues”.
It is natural and normal to speak in the language of your birth.
We are born again from above, therefore we should speak the language from above--that language is called "new tongues."
End
what is so different about new coming from above or from earth as another language. the language was still used in either heaven or earth, it is just new out of their lips. Just as we are a new creature. we are not a different being, but, our talk is different(new) our walk is different(new)
on the day of pentecost, obviously there were not "your" new tongues because unbelievers heard them in their own language. and by the way the unbelievers did not have the gift of understanding them, they were unsaved they had no gift, but the believers had the gift to speak man's language.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
just because love is greater that doesn't make the rest of the gifts useless as you seem to be saying.
I did not say the other gifts were useless. i just gave my testimony of what was most important for the church today.
as a side note: Since when have you seen the pouring of the Holy Spirit(tongues), as it was on the pentecost, and your church left the building and preached to five thousand people speaking in tongues. I'd love to hear your example. probably don't have one. don't base the evidence of tongues on experience, when the pentecostal's don't emulate the experience that happened on pentecost.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
You said, "There is no support for using tongues personally without understanding." Paul said, . . . But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
As i said before there is no evidence that paul condones praying without understanding. why, because understanding is important for yourself. the proof is in the verse you gave me. Yes, we pray to God, but read further down, Paul clarifies. . .But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Why is understanding important because it is not just for God as you state, but prayer prayer's two way conversation is for both.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
Jesus told the disciples that they woud receive power after they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. Now for a long time after I had been baptized with the Holy Spirit (with tongues)
Also you can't understand the blessing and edification of tongues if you don't have them, but the Bible is clear that they do edify the one praying.
i don't know how you conect these three (holy spirit indwelling, his power, salvation) but i will describe what i feel. Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
first we can't be saved without the Holy Spirit. in other words the minute we believe is the minute we are saved, and receive the spirit. Second, just as any material thing we ask for, we must as God to bless us with the power of the spirit. example is when the disciples couldn't cast out a demon, and Jesus responded by saying that those type do not come out but with much prayer and fasting. The power of the spirit is not just healing, tongues, bla bla bla, but it is also the small things like showing love to the idiot driver in front of us. it takes just as much of an infilling of the spirit to make our flesh love, as it does to do the tangible miracle, which everyone can point at.
And edification comes to its fulfillment when understanding and spirit meet head to head. one without the other is partial edification. we worship god with our whole self. if we didn't need a brain to worship god, he would have filled our head with rocks.
final thought notice how the holy spirit worked:
Acts 1:8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
first jerusalem, then judaea, then samaria, and last- uttermost parts of the earth. that is why in the beginning of the NT you wonder why people had to have hands put on to receive the HS. it was a transtion from John's baptism to Jesus and the HS baptism. Now there is no one living that has been saved under the OT covenant. and the HS has gone throughout the uttermost parts of the earth. Read in acts how the HS worked geographically.
< Message edited by jbbaab44 -- 3/13/2006 12:41:30 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 2:18:48 PM
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abcd123
Posts: 8
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
I only have one question: Why would you stand up in church and pray out loud in a tongue without an interpretation?
i was once in a school chapel service where a guest speaker, at the end of a service asked if anyone needed prayer, that he would lay hands on and pray for anyone who needed it (later it was pointed out that since it wasnt his church it was iffy for him to lay hands). nearly the whole room (about 100?) stood up, just because when one person stands up a lot of people do an no one wants to be left out (there were so many people i dont think the laying hands ever happened). for once in my life i decided it would be stupid to just stand up just because everyone else did and that it wouldnt be that weird to stay sitting. i was one of only a few people still sitting down. the man started praying, in tongues, which not only odd for a very non charismatic multi-denominational school, but there was no interpreter as it calls for in acts. it was disturbing to me (and to one girl behind me), i believe not only because it was something ive never heard before, but something spiritual too. during the next class period a teacher explained to us about the instructions for tongues in acts and it made more sense why i was bothered. another friend said that the speaker had used a passage during his talk that wasnt in the Bible when she looked it up. i dont know if she looked it up wrong, or if it was a matter of wrong references, but it was all really strange. funny too, that it was (just shortly) before my faith really became my own. very odd.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 2:46:55 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
just because love is greater that doesn't make the rest of the gifts useless as you seem to be saying.
I did not say the other gifts were useless. i just gave my testimony of what was most important for the church today.
as a side note: Since when have you seen the pouring of the Holy Spirit(tongues), as it was on the pentecost, and your church left the building and preached to five thousand people speaking in tongues. I'd love to hear your example. probably don't have one. don't base the evidence of tongues on experience, when the pentecostal's don't emulate the experience that happened on pentecost.
Pentecost was the initial outpouring. There were other examples of people receiving the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, most notably the Gentiles in Acts 10, which Peter specifically states (see Acts 11:15-16) was the same experience they received on Pentecost. Now Acts 10:46 specifically states that one of the reasons they knew that the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit was because they heard them speak in tongues.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 2:57:21 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
You said, "There is no support for using tongues personally without understanding."[/color] Paul said, . . . But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
As i said before there is no evidence that paul condones praying without understanding. why, because understanding is important for yourself. the proof is in the verse you gave me. Yes, we pray to God, but read further down, Paul clarifies. . .But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Why is understanding important because it is not just for God as you state, but prayer prayer's two way conversation is for both.
You forgot to highlight "and to God". Also do you really believe Paul is telling someone to pray to themselves? Paul is simply telling them to do it in private.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 3:07:28 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
Jesus told the disciples that they woud receive power after they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. Now for a long time after I had been baptized with the Holy Spirit (with tongues)
Also you can't understand the blessing and edification of tongues if you don't have them, but the Bible is clear that they do edify the one praying.
i don't know how you conect these three (holy spirit indwelling, his power, salvation) but i will describe what i feel. Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
first we can't be saved without the Holy Spirit. in other words the minute we believe is the minute we are saved, and receive the spirit. Second, just as any material thing we ask for, we must as God to bless us with the power of the spirit. example is when the disciples couldn't cast out a demon, and Jesus responded by saying that those type do not come out but with much prayer and fasting. The power of the spirit is not just healing, tongues, bla bla bla, but it is also the small things like showing love to the idiot driver in front of us. it takes just as much of an infilling of the spirit to make our flesh love, as it does to do the tangible miracle, which everyone can point at.
And edification comes to its fulfillment when understanding and spirit meet head to head. one without the other is partial edification. we worship god with our whole self. if we didn't need a brain to worship god, he would have filled our head with rocks.
final thought notice how the holy spirit worked:
Acts 1:8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
first jerusalem, then judaea, then samaria, and last- uttermost parts of the earth. that is why in the beginning of the NT you wonder why people had to have hands put on to receive the HS. it was a transtion from John's baptism to Jesus and the HS baptism. Now there is no one living that has been saved under the OT covenant. and the HS has gone throughout the uttermost parts of the earth. Read in acts how the HS worked geographically.
I'm not quite sure what you point is with all of this but I have already pointed out that the disciples received the Holy Spirit twice, first in John 20:22 which was the first day of the resurrection and then again on the day of Pentecost. This is a clear precedence for the teaching of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a "second blessing". As for the power, it will affect every area of our lives.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 5:06:31 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
You said, "There is no support for using tongues personally without understanding."[/color] Paul said, . . . But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
You forgot to highlight "and to God". Also do you really believe Paul is telling someone to pray to themselves? Paul is simply telling them to do it in private.
I'm not stupid, i know we pray to God, but what most pentecostals fail to realize is that God is revealing truth to US. that is why i only highlighted "to himself" Pentacostals don't like to highlight the "to himself" but love to highlight "mysteries to God" i reversed it to make my point which is still unargued. what is your interpretation of "to himself" refrerring about then? or is just a figure of speech, not to be taken into consideration? You are not speaking to self if self doesn't know what self is speaking about. A bible error possibly?
Private or public, the prayer should pray with understanding. yes, or no?
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
I'm not quite sure what you point is with all of this but I have already pointed out that the disciples received the Holy Spirit twice, first in John 20:22 which was the first day of the resurrection and then again on the day of Pentecost.
kind of funny, how Jesus commissioned them also on that day but they did not go until a week later.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
so to go along with your interpretation, they were to receive the HS at that time but were to not go at that time. something doesn't match up.
Is the HS split in half? half comes now and half comes later. or maybe the first holy spirit comes that does nothing for you, has no power, has no comfort, has no ability. but the second comes with all the power and all the ability. or does some ability come now and some ability come later. In other words what's the point/difference/reason for the first baptism and the second. Maybe the HS comes inside you and takes a nap until you summon it to a great awakening!!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 5:27:06 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
You said, "There is no support for using tongues personally without understanding."[/color] Paul said, . . . But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
You forgot to highlight "and to God". Also do you really believe Paul is telling someone to pray to themselves? Paul is simply telling them to do it in private.
I'm not stupid, i know we pray to God, but what most pentecostals fail to realize is that God is revealing truth to US. that is why i only highlighted "to himself" Pentacostals don't like to highlight the "to himself" but love to highlight "mysteries to God" i reversed it to make my point which is still unargued. what is your interpretation of "to himself" refrerring about then? or is just a figure of speech, not to be taken into consideration? You are not speaking to self if self doesn't know what self is speaking about. A bible error possibly?
Private or public, the prayer should pray with understanding. yes, or no?
It is obvious that Paul is telling them to speak in private to God without the understanding since he is speaking of those who have no interpretation otherwise he would let them speak in the church. As I said before he is simply telling them to do it in private.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 5:45:31 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
It is obvious that Paul is telling them to speak in private to God without the understanding since he is speaking of those who have no interpretation otherwise he would let them speak in the church. As I said before he is simply telling them to do it in private.
I see what you are saying. the answer depends on the next question.
Is it a heavenly babble or a human language? The church was diverse in ethnic, languages, and everything else. if the man was speaking in his language that is unknown to others he can speak to himself and God, and i prove my point. if he is speaking in a heavenly babble then you prove your point, which was he speaking? human language or heavenly babble? considering, on how diverse the church was, structure had to be laid down on how to use the different languages. Maybe when Paul said that he speaks more tongues then the rest, he was referring to how many languages he knew as compared to how often the heavenly babble occurred. how can he judge how often they can speak in the heavenly babble. can you judge that on other christians? but i bet you can give a text book answer as paul did about himself on how many languages he knew. After all Paul was an extremely educated man.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 5:53:31 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
I'm not quite sure what you point is with all of this but I have already pointed out that the disciples received the Holy Spirit twice, first in John 20:22 which was the first day of the resurrection and then again on the day of Pentecost.
kind of funny, how Jesus commissioned them also on that day but they did not go until a week later.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
so to go along with your interpretation, they were to receive the HS at that time but were to not go at that time. something doesn't match up.
Is the HS split in half? half comes now and half comes later. or maybe the first holy spirit comes that does nothing for you, has no power, has no comfort, has no ability. but the second comes with all the power and all the ability. or does some ability come now and some ability come later. In other words what's the point/difference/reason for the first baptism and the second. Maybe the HS comes inside you and takes a nap until you summon it to a great awakening!!
It has nothing to do with my interpretation of anything. I gave information concerning the original Greek that it was written in which you can look it up for yourself. Your interpretation can't change what the Greek says and it says that they received the Holy Spirit at that time and place. I never said the first time was a baptism. The first time was the new birth or regeneration which is supported by the symbology of Jesus breathing on them. John 20:22 occurred on the first day of the resurrection and if you read Acts 1 (40 days later) you will see that Jesus instructed them to wait until they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. You see the new birth is when we receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts by faith and the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an immersion into the Spirit of our whole being. One is the regeneration of our hearts by faith and the other is the complete infilling and overflowing of the Holy Spirit. They are two different events, although they can happen at the same time. In Acts 8 there were people who were already baptized in the name of Jesus who it says the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon. Now I don't believe they baptized people in the name of Jesus who weren't saved, so what could it mean? It is simple when you acknowledge that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after salvation. In Acts 19 there were believers who were only baptized in the name of John so Paul has them baptized in the name of Jesus but it wasn't until he laid hands on them that the Holy Ghost came on them and they spoke in tongues. In Luke 11:13 Jesus tells us "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him." Now the context here is that of a Father giving gifts to His children and the only way to be a child of God is by the new birth.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 6:38:45 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
The first time was the new birth or regeneration which is supported by the symbology of Jesus breathing on them. John 20:22 occurred on the first day of the resurrection and if you read Acts 1 (40 days later) you will see that Jesus instructed them to wait until they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
I somewhat know what you are saying, and i think i somewhat agree with you but there is something there that i can't put my finger on. i don't think you can compare how the HS was given at that time to how it is given now. Number one, as stated in Romans 8:9 you cannot be reborn/regenerated without the HS. Number two the good news had not been delivered everywhere and people were still saved under the old news. my main argument is Rom 8:9 As a child of God there is no point in our lives where we are without the HS.
they had the holy spirit but were not allowed to be infilled with it until 40 days later? Being spirit filled today is not a matter of asking. it's a matter of being empty of self. But the spirit will come and control after praying and fasting.
i have to stop this for a day i can't think my mind is going in loops this can get messy if you get off track.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2006 7:55:28 PM
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sunshinesoprano
Posts: 903
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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Okay, let me interrupt here.
I can buy the 2nd infilling...that's not a problem for me.
Let's go back to the praying to oneself. I know people who pray in tongues who know what they're saying, and others who don't know.
What's the point if you don't know what you're saying? How can that be edifying?
I'm not trying to dispute here, just understand...
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2006 12:03:05 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
The first time was the new birth or regeneration which is supported by the symbology of Jesus breathing on them. John 20:22 occurred on the first day of the resurrection and if you read Acts 1 (40 days later) you will see that Jesus instructed them to wait until they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
I somewhat know what you are saying, and i think i somewhat agree with you but there is something there that i can't put my finger on. i don't think you can compare how the HS was given at that time to how it is given now. Number one, as stated in Romans 8:9 you cannot be reborn/regenerated without the HS. Number two the good news had not been delivered everywhere and people were still saved under the old news. my main argument is Rom 8:9 As a child of God there is no point in our lives where we are without the HS.
they had the holy spirit but were not allowed to be infilled with it until 40 days later? Being spirit filled today is not a matter of asking. it's a matter of being empty of self. But the spirit will come and control after praying and fasting.
i have to stop this for a day i can't think my mind is going in loops this can get messy if you get off track.
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i don't think you can compare how the HS was given at that time to how it is given now.
Why not? Has God changed?
2 Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Romans 15:4 states, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
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Number one, as stated in Romans 8:9 you cannot be reborn/regenerated without the HS.
I agree.
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Number two the good news had not been delivered everywhere and people were still saved under the old news.
I disagree. In Luke 16:16 Jesus said, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Once Jesus died on the Cross the types and shadows were gone. The Cross is the central point of redemption and there are no scriptures to support someone being saved under the old covenant after the Cross. Besides being baptized in the name of Jesus would hardly be considered "old news" at the time and it certainly would not apply to the disciples that Jesus breathed on.
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they had the holy spirit but were not allowed to be infilled with it until 40 days later?
When one is born again their heart is regenerated and they receive the Holy Spirit into the heart by faith, so yes they do have the Holy Spirit in them but that does not mean that they are filled with or baptized with the Holy Spirit yet. Paul used the Israelites coming out of Egypt as an example of salvation (see 1 Corinthians 10) but the Red Sea was not the only body of water that the Israelites had to cross. Now once they had left Egypt they were delivered. The old man was dead and they were saved, but they still had not entered into the promised land until they crossed the Jordan. Was God with them? Yes. Were they in the promised land? No. Also the promised land is not a type of heaven because we will not have to fight any battles once we get to heaven.
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Being spirit filled today is not a matter of asking.
Can you tell me where I can find this in the Bible? Jesus said in Luke 11:9-13, "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Now this also shows that we don't have to be afraid of getting something harmful if we ask God for something good and especially if we are asking for the Holy Spirit.
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it's a matter of being empty of self.
A person can be empty of self and still not be filled with the Holy Spirit. In fact it is a dangerous thing to be empty and not filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in Matthew 12:43-45, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."
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But the spirit will come and control after praying and fasting.
Are you saying that we earn the Holy Spirit's help with praying and fasting? Having begun in the Spirit are we perfected in the flesh?
The foundation of our victory over sin, the flesh and the devil is the cross and the blood that Jesus shed for us not in praying and fasting. Now don't get me wrong, I believe in praying and fasting but we have to remember what our foundation is. Consider this, when Jesus said "this kind comes out only by prayer and fasting" was He talking about the demons? I think Jesus was talking about the unbelief in their hearts coming not demons coming out of someone else.
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Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2006 12:13:04 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Okay, let me interrupt here.
I can buy the 2nd infilling...that's not a problem for me.
Let's go back to the praying to oneself. I know people who pray in tongues who know what they're saying, and others who don't know.
What's the point if you don't know what you're saying? How can that be edifying?
I'm not trying to dispute here, just understand...
My spirit can communicate things to the Holy Spirit that I could not even comprehend with the natural mind. The Holy Spirit can also search things out that I would never be able to see or recognize even if I did see it.
Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2006 5:25:39 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
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ORIGINAL: wacotton
Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
OK, the Holy Spirit is a mediator, why does speak in babble. God and the HS don't have a language. or do they? The HS communicates our spirit to God without audible words. after all if you read that verse, it seems that the HS is always translating our words to God's will. We never have the perfect words to say to God anyways,
Question: so why should we ever speak english in private?
another question i don't think you answered
Question: Why did jesus commission the disciples and give them the HS, but they only received the HS.
Luke 24:29
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Answer: The spirit didn't come upon them yet. Notice how he is talking about the HS and its power, both in the same verse. Jesus is telling them he is sending the promise but supposedly you say he gave the HS to them in the upper room already?
Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
they would receive the power after the holy ghost is come upon them. They did not have the Holy Ghost in the upper room yet. remember this is Jesus' transfiguration, after the upper room
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
The HS and the promise/power are one in the same. Read Luke 1:35
Question: Peter was filled with the Holy Ghost numerous times. How many times exactly can you be baptized with the Holy Spirit? I can see being completely spirit controlled at times, but separating the HS indwelling from the HS power is off, i believe.
Paul was setting up structure in the church so people would speak under an interpreter and one at a time.
Question: why do some think that they just can't control the HS. Paul makes it clear and important to understand the babble, and yes it can be controlled, other wise paul would have shrugged his shoulders in the church.
I believe in tongues. i believe that a prayer language and tongues are the same. i believe that you are missing at least half the blessing if you don't know the interpretation. i believe that tongues is majorly abused and is used selfishly for self edification, proof of that is that there is not half as many interpreters as there are tongue speakers, and also tongues is not used for evangelism. i think most know that their tongue is manipulated by who knows what, and they would not dare speak to the unsaved like what happened on pentecost. The biggest downfall for my argument is that i am going against personal experiences of others. Last thing; Languages, and our voice box were created for man, they were not created for God, and any kind of tongues/prayer language without interpretation makes our voice box and language useless.
< Message edited by jbbaab44 -- 3/14/2006 6:32:31 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2006 6:42:06 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
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ORIGINAL: wacotton
Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
OK, the Holy Spirit is a mediator, why does speak in babble. God and the HS don't have a language. or do they? can't it communicate our spirit to God without audible words. after all if you read that verse, it seems that the HS is always translating our words to God's will. We never have the perfect words to say to God anyways so why should we ever speak english in private ever?
Why do you say it is babble, just because you don't understand it? Have you ever heard someone speak one of the tribal languages? Just because something sounds like babble to us doesn't mean it is. Also remember the foolishness of God is greater than the greatest wisdom of man.
Why wouldn't God and the Holy Spirit have a language? Where in the Bible does say that they don't? Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:1, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
Lastly the verse doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is "translating our words" since we don't know what we should even pray. The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and prays according to the will of God on our behalf.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2006 7:13:33 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
another question i don't think you answered
Question: Why did jesus commission the disciples and give them the HS, but they only received the HS.
Luke 24:29
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Answer: The spirit didn't come upon them yet. Notice how he is talking about the HS and its power, both in the same verse. Jesus is telling them he is sending the promise but supposedly you say he gave the HS to them in the upper room already?
Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
they would receive the power after the holy ghost is come upon them. They did not have the Holy Ghost in the upper room yet. remember this is Jesus' transfiguration, after the upper room
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
The HS and the promise/power are one in the same. Read Luke 1:35
Question: Peter was filled with the Holy Ghost numerous times. How many times exactly can you be baptized with the Holy Spirit? I can see being completely spirit controlled at times, but separating the HS indwelling from the HS power is off, i believe.
Your arguments don't change what the Bible says. The Bible says they received the Holy Spirit in John 20. This is the new birth. These same disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Why God chose to do it this way I don't know but the scriptures cannot be contradicted. Why did the Israelites have to cross two rivers to get into the promised land? Why is it that every person I have ever met who could speak in tongues described the baptism with the Holy Spirit as a very distinct and separate experience that occured after salvation and every one I know who doesn't speak in tongues doesn't? What is amazing to me is that before I was baptized with the Holy Spirit people tried real hard to convince me that I already was and afterwards people try real hard to convince me that it either isn't real, is evil or is some form of mass histeria. Also I refuse to believe that my heavenly Father would allow me to receive something from the devil when I ask Him for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The new birth has to do with salvation and the baptism with the Holy Spirit has to do with entering into the fulness of God and his purpose for our life.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2006 7:30:55 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Paul was setting up structure in the church so people would speak under an interpreter and one at a time.
Question: why do some think that they just can't control the HS. Paul makes it clear and important to understand the babble, and yes it can be controlled, other wise paul would have shrugged his shoulders in the church.
Paul makes it clear that tongues cannot be understood by any man apart from the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:3
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
quote:
I believe in tongues. i believe that a prayer language and tongues are the same. i believe that you are missing at least half the blessing if you don't know the interpretation. i believe that tongues is majorly abused and is used selfishly for self edification, proof of that is that there is not half as many interpreters as there are tongue speakers, and also tongues is not used for evangelism. i think most know that their tongue is manipulated by who knows what, and they would not dare speak to the unsaved like what happened on pentecost. The biggest downfall for my argument is that i am going against personal experiences of others. Last thing; Languages, and our voice box were created for man, they were not created for God, and any kind of tongues/prayer language without interpretation makes our voice box and language useless.
Personally I believe you are missing the greatest blessing if you are not able to pray in tongues. How is the Holy Spirit praying according to the will of God through us with unknown words useless? Why do you have to know what He is saying or don't you trust Him to pray correctly? Where in the Bible does it say that self-edification is selfish? In Jude God commands us to build ourselves up in the faith so how is that selfish? The Bible says in 1 Samuel 30:6 that King David "encouraged himself in the Lord his God". From what I see of the state of the church we need to edify ourselves more than ever.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 11:49:39 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
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