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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2008 6:23:25 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Dave,
I didn't know that's what the Presbys taught. I agreed with all of your post except the point of us getting The Holy Spirit within. I believe our spirit within becomes holy with regeneration. That is the spirit promised of God, and not His Spirit. Though they both are of the same essence and bear witness to one another (Rom 8:16). It is true that our spirit (as part of our total being) is washed and made holy by accepting the death and resurrection of Messah.
That does not mean we are instantly mature, instantly perfected, instantly free from besetting sins or instantly knowledgable in all areas of christian life. That is the ongoing work of the Spirit within, to grow us up in all areas.
If you look at the words in Greek for the Holy Spirit moving on us, it is clear that the text indicates "within."
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2008 12:46:26 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 415
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From: Kansas
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DaveW,
quote:
If you look at the words in Greek for the Holy Spirit moving on us, it is clear that the text indicates "within."
I think if you look closer I think you'll find that those "within" words are dealing with The Holy Spirit moving in the singular corporate body of Christ. And 'that' body is a many membered body, not your body....though you/I are individual parts of it.
If you follow the grammar of the next two references you'll see that God's Spirit dwells within the body which we are and not the one which you/I have.
Maybe you already know this but in the Greek YE and YOU is plural and Thee and Thou are singular when speaking of people.
EPH 2:19 Now therefore ye (pl) are...of the household (sg) of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building (sg) fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple (sg) in the Lord: 22 In whom ye (pl) also are builded together for an habitation (sg) of God through the Spirit.
1PE 2:5 and like living stones (pl) be yourselves built into a spiritual house, (sg)
The above two verses make it clear that the temple/habitation/'spiritual house' of The Holy Spirit is not your or me, it is us.
Even if you look at the popular verses people use to prove The Holy Spirit lives within us as an individual you'll find grammatical problems.
1CO 3:16,17 Know ye (pl) not that ye (pl) are the temple (sg) of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you (pl)? :17 If any man defile the temple (sg) of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple (ye) of God is holy, which temple (sg) ye (pl) are.
If this verse meant our individual bodies then it should have made it plural and said: Know Ye not that your bodies (pl) are temples (pl) of God. But it didn't say that because it is speaking of the corporate body and not your body or my body. That's why in 1Cor it is dealing with the fornicator by kicking him out of the corporate body which he was defiling. What body was that? It was the corporate body where God's Spirit dwells.
Thoughts?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2008 6:04:45 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 164
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Hello Him4all,
quote:
If this verse meant our individual bodies then it should have made it plural and said: Know Ye not that your bodies (pl) are temples (pl) of God. But it didn't say that because it is speaking of the corporate body and not your body or my body. That's why in 1Cor it is dealing with the fornicator by kicking him out of the corporate body which he was defiling. What body was that? It was the corporate body where God's Spirit dwells.
Thoughts?
Looks right to me.
Greek N.T. with grammar tags bears out what you have stated.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2008 9:25:29 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1622
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Dave,
I didn't know that's what the Presbys taught. I agreed with all of your post except the point of us getting The Holy Spirit within. I believe our spirit within becomes holy with regeneration. That is the spirit promised of God, and not His Spirit. Though they both are of the same essence and bear witness to one another (Rom 8:16). It is true that our spirit (as part of our total being) is washed and made holy by accepting the death and resurrection of Messah.
That does not mean we are instantly mature, instantly perfected, instantly free from besetting sins or instantly knowledgable in all areas of christian life. That is the ongoing work of the Spirit within, to grow us up in all areas.
If you look at the words in Greek for the Holy Spirit moving on us, it is clear that the text indicates "within."
Greetings,
It has to be within. Otherwise there is no witness,
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives “in you”
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
If not the HS would be witnessing emotion from the outside in, and contradicts that we are to walk by faith and not by sight??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 10:55:14 AM
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Him4all
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TJ,
Thank you, I appreciate your noteworthy imput on that point.
LoyalGypsy,
You quote a very difficult set of passages. Ones that I have spent much time considering in light of this position I've presented. The difficulty is compounded by the fact that the translators capitalized spirit in places they shouldn't have because they did not understand the perspective I'm talking about (Your quote of Rom 8:11 is an example).
quote:
It has to be within. Otherwise there is no witness, Why would that have to be the case? And how do you support that premise? Verse 16 didn't say The Spirit had to be within. But it does say the spirit that's within someone who's born again, is born of God and that spirit will witnesses or confess to that fact when asked (1Joh 4:2 below).
When reading verse Rom 8:11 instead of reading "And if the Spirit of/tov Him who raised.." change your perception to "And if the spirit from/tov...Him who raised..."
We must realize that in the Greek the word 'tov' which is translated "of"above isn't possesive...it's indicative of the source "from" which something was given. It's not "the Spirit of God" it's "the spirit from God". And it's that spirit from God that bears witness WITH the Holy Spirit of God that we are children ek/out of God (1Joh 4:4).
1JO 4:2 Hereby know ye the Sspirit of/from God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
In the above verse the spirit that's of/from God is your spirit, and IMO should not have been capitalized (just like it wasn't capitalized the second time in this verse). And 'that' spirit it speaks of, is born of the Holy Spirit just like the spirit that Jesus was born with was also of/from The Holy Spirit. But 'that spirit' in Jesus was not THE Holy Spirit, it was Jesus' spirit. He didn't receive The Spirit until the dove decended UPON him...correct? And the witness of The Spirit UPON Jesus is what bore witness to the holy spirit that was within Jesus.
What's been said here bears several meditative readings to grasp. I'm not asking that you or anyone agree with me, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from in my dealing with the difficult passage you presented.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 4/1/2008 11:07:53 AM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 4:02:07 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1622
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
TJ,
Thank you, I appreciate your noteworthy impute on that point.
LoyalGypsy,
What's been said here bears several meditative readings to grasp. I'm not asking that you or anyone agree with me, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from in my dealing with the difficult passage you presented.
DR
So also, I to, appreciate the word lessons;
quote:
And how do you support that premise?
By the experience mainly, that experience in the moments in which I was delivered was quite interesting,
And have been spending most of my time from that day locating those likeness’s as mentioned in the scriptures …
And trying to put it into words, that which was given to me in the Spirit.
LOL!
quote:
We must realize that in the Greek the word 'tov' which is translated "of” above isn't possessive...it's indicative of the source "from" which something was given.
It seems to be the same…
That when one is speaking of the source, it is always of the first person, whereby everything in respect… comes from God…
The Sprit that emanates from God is the Spirit that proceeds from that source,
And has to follow, in that specific order
I find it interesting that in the creation account that Says “in the beginning”…”God” created the Heavens and the Earth…which could be looked at in it's indicative of the source, in the first person as being "from" ….in respect that everything comes from God
….But that which preceded the spoken word in the beginning was the Spirit of God, who was already present, therefore God spoke through the Spirit, which emanates from Himself…. and the world was created.
And that the world was created by Him and for Him could also indicate a type of possessive, whereby “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you” …..
For example;
John 15:7 - Show Context
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what “you” desire, and it shall be done for you
This is not a projected principal such as interceding, which can take some time,
This is directed inward and occurs immediately, therefore and it shall be done for you
We do not command the Lord, we ask, And it shall be done for you, does not seem to suggest we did it for ourselves…. which IMO indicates a type of possessive
For example,
Speaking for myself, I have found that when the tempters thoughts rears its ugly head; that speaking in a tongue, ...even in a whisper; ...kills off those darts immediately,
Even thought I have no clue of what is being said,
The principal written in,
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
As in like manner to John 15:7 they will cast out demons this is directed inward and occurs immediately, where the inner witness in the possessive is the HS. Concerning those things that shall be done for you, therefore the HS will not pray for you.
And this same principal is seen when Jesus sent them out 2 by 2 the same principal John 15:7 can be also projected outward “in the presence of 1 witness”.
So because neither one of the 2 disciples Jesus sent out believed, they could cast out this demon and as we see here in
Mark 9:14-29, so there was no witness, Jesus therefore asked the mans father.
21 So He asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?"
And he said, "From childhood.
22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us."
23 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."
Belief is the key here and is synonymous to both the possessive and the projected interceding… both need to be witnessed by the HS “to” a believer, as in v 17;Which is inward 17 And these signs will follow those who believe …..
And Mark 9:21-23; which is outward and also “for” a believer.
23 Jesus said to him, "If “you” can believe, =speaking to anyone who would believe on the behalf of another!
The HS is witness in both cases to those who believe.
I know it’s a little rough…but can you see a little in part of what Paul was speaking of when he addressed the congregation of the difference about speaking in tongues??
22 Tongues, then, are "a sign", not for believers but for unbelievers; .....Because these signs will "follow" those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
One is for the edification of oneself, John 15:7
And one is for the body; Mark 9:21-23
And both of these are witnessed by believers and the HS, and are a sign to the ...unbeliever.
22 prophecies, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 6:52:03 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/1/2007
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Hello Him4all,
The following links may be helpful to illustrate your point.
The difference between Genetive and Ablative
The following will show the grammar of the TOU from Acts 1:4
TOU in the genetive
I had to edit this to let you know that you will have to enter Acts 1:4 in the proper field and choose a Greek NT with grammar tags from the bible option as the site no longer lets me link to the specific page.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
< Message edited by TJO5 -- 4/1/2008 7:01:17 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 9:13:10 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1622
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
LoyalGypsy,
quote:
quote:
DR quote:
We must realize that in the Greek the word 'tov' which is translated "of” above isn't possessive...it's indicative of the source "from" which something was given.
It seems to be the same…
That when one is speaking of the source, it is always of the first person, whereby everything in respect… comes from God…
The Sprit that emanates from God is the Spirit that proceeds from that source,
It may "seem to be the same" to you, and if it does, then a lot of what I said may not have made much of an impression to you. Let me give another example of the use of the Gr. word tov.
ACT 1:4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father.
I may need a little liberty in my use of the word 'possessive'. In the above verse does getting the "promise of the Father" mean that you're going to get the Father (possessive) or does it mean you're going to get something (the promise) from the Father (the source)? In other words are you going to get "the promise of...the Father", or does it mean you are going to get "the promise...of the Father"? I hope that helps. It certainly clears up the difference between God's Spirit and our spirit and just what happens concerning the scriptures that say we're getting a spirit from God...all the while the translation makes it sound like we're getting the Spirit of God.
The rest of your post I really didn't have any differing thoughts particularly. But I wasn't sure how it applied to our topic. Made me wonder if I did a really poor job on my last post. 
Well it's time for me to go to jail  ...for ministry. 
DR
Greetings,
quote:
The rest of your post I really didn't have any differing thoughts particularly. But I wasn't sure how it applied to our topic. Made me wonder if I did a really poor job on my last post.
No not at all, Hey! the universe is expanding daily… and if I don’t understand exactly, I have a tendency to stretch with it…LOL!
quote:
I may need a little liberty in my use of the word 'possessive'. In the above verse does getting the "promise of the Father" mean that you're going to get the Father (possessive) or does it mean you're going to get something (the promise) from the Father (the source)? In other words are you going to get "the promise of...the Father", or does it mean you are going to get "the promise...of the Father"? I hope that helps
I see how the one inference can take it to slant into mean two different things, but as long as it winds up as answered prayer, then we actually receive both, don’t we?
Hopefully,
But I am having the same issues with the use of the Greek, in using the word “be” in particulate, as either meaning “from then on”…. or meaning …as if already occurred.
But not wanting to get off topic…
The most perfect prayer in the scriptures that we were allowed to hear Jesus speak, in MO, is where I have always wondered about this passage and in the contexts of John 17,
As being one
For example
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Since the first and the last part were already posted in part and we were carried a bit off topic…. I am going to take it out and leave this here,
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,
…. will you define v21as you did with the above…. if …you get a chance??
I am only asking this because I had put a word for out some help in Greek in other threads, and truthfully I just stumbled upon your post here,
SO I guess you’re the DR. LOL!
I will most likely grasp the rest… or the differences… if any ….when I see it again elsewhere ….
You can PM me also, which may be a better Idea.
Thanks Dr
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 10:48:54 PM
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lmwal931
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i think we have many concepts here. a bit complicated. please, let us not put the HOLY SPIRIT in a box. the HOLY SPIRIT determines if and when mostof the time. there are known tongues and unknown tongues. have you ever said something with no thought or premonnition? if it is the truth, good, you have been directed by the HOLY SPIRIT. if it is spontaneous, but not the truth, not good, this could be a known tongue from a evil spirit. in my opinion unknown tongues is private between you and GOD. i ackknowledge unknown tongues when asked, but never volunteering.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 1:27:41 PM
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Him4all
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From: Kansas
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TJ,
You've posted the Greek book URL before when we were on another thread. I went there and read what it said. I did so again and also checked out Olivetree. Confession time...I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the complexities of Greek and computers. I actually have a beginners Greek text that I've read on and off with no real sense of achievement. I truly am not interested in devoting precious time toward that endeavor. I am hopeful that people who are better Greek Scholars, or better at navigating these sites (like you listed) can give me an honest appraisal concerning that which I believe comes from revelation of the Spirit. I'll leave the scholastic confirmation to those better qualified. In doing so I know I risk the attempt of those who are simply bound to fundamental or traditional doctrine to pull their intellectual wool over my eyes. Oh well...that's my dilemma.
LoyalGypsy,
quote:
No not at all, Hey! the universe is expanding daily… and if I don’t understand exactly, I have a tendency to stretch with it…LOL!
My monthly bible study came this week and it would go well with your above post. God is an ever creating God and the lengths of His continuing expansiveness is only limited to us because of our finite capability to see farther than we do.
quote:
But I am having the same issues with the use of the Greek, in using the word “be” in particulate, as either meaning “from then on”…. or meaning …as if already occurred.
It's funny that we should stop and ponder those little words at such great lengths now, when they weren't even a bump in our readings of scripute in the earlier years.
quote:
SO I guess you’re the DR. LOL!
If you read my reply to TJ you now realize that your ascribing a DR. is slightly amiss. My initials are DR and it is true that I am a Dr. ...but my doctorate is certainly not in Greek Grammar.
But from a purely Sspirit led POV I would say that your trouble with the word "be" and verse 21 is easily view from neither a present progressive tense (from then on) or from a past tense (as if already occured) POV. I believe that the priestly prayer of Jesus in that verse is future tense...or prophetic even in nature. The fulfillment of that prayer wasn't even possible until the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first given to the church. Maybe others here have another opinion...maybe we'll see.
lmwal931,
The concepts being talked about from my POV are certainly not putting "the Holy Spirit in a box". If anything I feel like I'm tearing down a box that was built many years ago by theologians who were very scholastic but not very Sspirit led. Some longstanding teachings on the Holy Spirit are, to quote Warren Wiersbe: "Like a bad photograph, poorly exposed and over developed." And scripture says knowledge shall increase in the last days...maybe it's time for new knowledge/doctrine.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 11:39:37 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 164
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Hello Him4all,
quote:
You've posted the Greek book URL before when we were on another thread. I went there and read what it said. I did so again and also checked out Olivetree. Confession time...I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the complexities of Greek and computers. I actually have a beginners Greek text that I've read on and off with no real sense of achievement. I truly am not interested in devoting precious time toward that endeavor. I am hopeful that people who are better Greek Scholars, or better at navigating these sites (like you listed) can give me an honest appraisal concerning that which I believe comes from revelation of the Spirit. I'll leave the scholastic confirmation to those better qualified. In doing so I know I risk the attempt of those who are simply bound to fundamental or traditional doctrine to pull their intellectual wool over my eyes. Oh well...that's my dilemma.
I didn't mean to overwhelm you with complexities. 100% of what I posted was directly devoted to pointing out that you absolutely right.
The genitive use-which the scripture under discussion was shown by the grammar tags to be means that it was definitely the promise "of" the Father.
Ablative would have been "from".
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 11:56:17 PM
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dsantorejr
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And scripture says knowledge shall increase in the last days...maybe it's time for new knowledge/doctrine.
I thnk the problem i have with what you said, "Him 4 all" any new knowledge or doctrine, must be tempered with His revelation, the Bible. we can't add to it. maybe I misunderstood. Any prophetic utterence or speaking in tongues has to be done in a way that lines up with scripture.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 1:00:11 AM
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TJO5
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Hello LocalGypsy,
quote:
But I am having the same issues with the use of the Greek, in using the word “be” in particulate, as either meaning “from then on”…. or meaning …as if already occurred.
Verb conjugation is somewhat tricky.The following link has a basic explanation of the verb. On the first page- 12. section 2. and 14. on the second page.
Tense,Mode, Voice
Once you realize that each verb contains these three elements in conjugation it is possible to use grammar tags to find out when the action takes place,the relationship of the action to the subject,and the duration of the action.
There are occasionally other factors to consider in a complex sentence but this is the basic premise. Had you posted a verse or two I would have demonstrated for you,because that link -when combined with the bible search engine I linked several posts ago can be used to parse the verbs.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 7:11:07 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1622
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TJO5
Hello LocalGypsy,
quote:
But I am having the same issues with the use of the Greek, in using the word “be” in particulate, as either meaning “from then on”…. or meaning …as if already occurred.
Verb conjugation is somewhat tricky.The following link has a basic explanation of the verb. On the first page- 12. section 2. and 14. on the second page.
Tense,Mode, Voice
Once you realize that each verb contains these three elements in conjugation it is possible to use grammar tags to find out when the action takes place,the relationship of the action to the subject,and the duration of the action.
There are occasionally other factors to consider in a complex sentence but this is the basic premise. Had you posted a verse or two I would have demonstrated for you,because that link -when combined with the bible search engine I linked several posts ago can be used to parse the verbs.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
Thank you for that impute, TJ05 and Him4all, and the link!!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 10:44:17 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 415
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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TJ,
I knew that your grammatical point was confirming what I believe the Spirit revealed to me. And I am truly thankful for that Greek endorsement in your 2102 post. But in light of that confirmation, how many today use that very verse to "prove" The Holy Spirit dwells in us as individual bodies as opposed to 'the corporate body'? I'd say most believe that because of bible capitalizations added by interpreters and never intended by the original inspiration of The Holy Spirit. I also think that's why we have so many today refusing to move into the Sspiritual things...like tongues ect. simply because they don't believe there's more to be had in the Sspiritual realm.
dsantorejr,
quote:
I thnk the problem i have with what you said, "Him 4 all" any new knowledge or doctrine, must be tempered with His revelation, the Bible. we can't add to it. maybe I misunderstood. Any prophetic utterence or speaking in tongues has to be done in a way that lines up with scripture.
What if the revelation is of God but the bible is wrong? God didn't capitalize letters...man did. And unfortunately the men who translated the bible for years weren't baptized with the Holy Spirit and tongue speaking (getting this back on the thread). Doesn't it make sense then, that any interpretation of a GR. translation was going to line up with their experience...or lack thereof. We are always influenced by our theological understanding from indoctrinated tradition.
Early translators were fundamental and put great mental/scholastic effort into their attempts at correct interpretation. Efforts which we all should be thankful for. But looking at the different bibles you'll see they still don't even agree today when Sspirit should be capitalized or not. When you see a capital H or S with the words holy and spirit you assume that means The Holy Spirit of the triune God. But if that S is not capitalized then you think it means an evil spirit or a human spirit ect.
'Over 50 times in the NT the bible scholars confused the reader by capitalizations which assumed that the spirit being talked about was God's Spirit and not our spirit.' The above comment comes from the Companion bible which is a study bible written over a hundred years ago and still in print because of truths like the above comment. In all of the known Greek manuscripts the writings are totally in lowercase or uppercase, therefore all bible capitalization today comes from us, and not necessarily God. Most of the time it isn't an issue, but in this doctrine I believe it is.
quote:
Any prophetic utterence or speaking in tongues has to be done in a way that lines up with scripture.
I'd say that any tongue or prophesy will line up with the true rhema/word or logos/word of God but it certainly may not line up with todays graphe/scripture which we hold in our hand. That's a personal opinion of course.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 4/3/2008 10:53:48 AM >
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Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 10:19:28 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 415
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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LoyalGypsy,
quote:
I mean I attend a Church that will utterly stop praise and worship so some one can spit out a tongue,
Not only is that out of order
I suppose the word 'order' needs to be looked at more closely.
1CO 14:40 but all things should be done decently and in order/taxis.
5010 taxis: regular arrangement, i.e. (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity
From what you just described it sounds like someone getting up to give a spontaneous tongue/interpretation is part of the regular arrangement in your services and the rank or character of the Spirit manifesting is more important than the scheduled program of a manmade service.
quote:
but then someone comes up and gives an interpretation to boot….that is not in line with the revelator, (scriptures) of the prophesy that was given in the praise and worship,
You say scripture is the revelator which should line up with what the quartet sings? I've heard many songs that made me cringe inside simply because some Christian 'entertainer' wrote a song that rhymes but is doctrinally/scripturally incorrect. Do you know what I mean? Let me ask you a hypothetical question: If the interpretation said: "There is no rapture"...or the interpretation said "There is a rapture" which one would 'your church' say isn't scriptural? See what I mean?
quote:
The wrong order in the use of tongues can definitely squash the move of the Sprit.
Generally in praise and worship as in the tabernacle of David, God is the focus. Period!
What better time for God to manifest than when He is the object of the body? Doesn't scripture say draw near to him (worship) and he will draw near to you (manifestation)?
Just some thoughts LG, and I know I don't know the particulars of your church. You may be looking at it perfectly right.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2008 6:40:04 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1622
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
LoyalGypsy,
quote:
I mean I attend a Church that will utterly stop praise and worship so some one can spit out a tongue,
Not only is that out of order
I suppose the word 'order' needs to be looked at more closely.
1CO 14:40 but all things should be done decently and in order/taxis.
5010 taxis: regular arrangement, i.e. (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity
From what you just described it sounds like someone getting up to give a spontaneous tongue/interpretation is part of the regular arrangement in your services and the rank or character of the Spirit manifesting is more important than the scheduled program of a manmade service.
quote:
but then someone comes up and gives an interpretation to boot….that is not in line with the revelator, (scriptures) of the prophesy that was given in the praise and worship,
You say scripture is the revelator which should line up with what the quartet sings? I've heard many songs that made me cringe inside simply because some Christian 'entertainer' wrote a song that rhymes but is doctrinally/scripturally incorrect. Do you know what I mean? Let me ask you a hypothetical question: If the interpretation said: "There is no rapture"...or the interpretation said "There is a rapture" which one would 'your church' say isn't scriptural? See what I mean?
quote:
The wrong order in the use of tongues can definitely squash the move of the Sprit.
Generally in praise and worship as in the tabernacle of David, God is the focus. Period!
What better time for God to manifest than when He is the object of the body? Doesn't scripture say draw near to him (worship) and he will draw near to you (manifestation)?
Just some thoughts LG, and I know I don't know the particulars of your church. You may be looking at it perfectly right.
DR
Greetings,
It not so much as what is seen, but what is heard, the majority of the time it is the same people, giving the same word, over and over again,
I think pastor tries to hard get others to come forward, and by doing that instead of telling those who repeatedly come forward to just to sit down, It becomes more and more a sacrament than a tongue, because nothing new is given.
Truly, to practice the prophetic tongue when the Spirit moves, Paul suggests in be given by 2 or 3 “”witnesses”” to that fact… and that one of them interpret.
Truthfully the were times when the assistant pastor when the Spirit has moved, and while waiting for someone to come forward, he went off in the interpretation,
And I just followed the rhythm of his words on the bass ….That was clean!!!
No quartette religiosity going on there!, although the other band members sometimes “fail” to catch on!!
For example…
….It’s like when my wife is driving,
(She is always out there when she drives) (She sings in the choirs and they are very good, and attended many invites in the region) ….so she is out there most of the time…..
So we come to a stop sign, and no one is coming ….for some reason we are sitting there, at "any" stop sign, waiting,
So I have to say to her ….I say to her HONEY!! (as a wake up call)…, “what are you waiting for... for the traffic to come?…so you can pull out???
So in like manner when the Spirit has opened the clear doorway (Spirit) and there is no other traffic,(Satan) folks just seem to be waiting for someone else to come,
Mr 6:34 - Show Context
And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.
When I mentioned there are those who repeatedly come forward and give the same interpretation, whereby it becomes more and more a sacrament ...than a tongue; because nothing new is given….is because no tongue was given!!
As it is written in the principal above, when Jesus comes and attends to a multitude or a service,
He seeks the least esteemed, who believe but are somehow lost, because He has compassion on them,
He wants to raise them up,
So it is the lest esteemed who generally gets the prophetic tongue, because He wants to teach the congregation that!!
But many Church rules squash that, because this person may not be well known among them, or have not yet attended 101, 201 and 301 Classes… nor may not even be “a member”……
Therefore when the hand is raised to give an interpretation they are looked over… when the Church should be looking for them,
Therefore they are looked over, it is given to the one who is well known among them, who may not necessarily be in need, who delivers the same message….which is always the same thing, …..Because it is always the same ones!!
Mt 11:25
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2008 2:41:57 AM
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Godhead
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
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Babbling... definitions thereof
1-Gibberish resembling the sounds of a baby
2-Utter meaningless sounds, like a baby, or utter in an incoherent way
3-To talk foolishly
4-Flow in an irregular current with a bubbling noise, as of water
5-Talking idly or incoherently
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A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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