|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 8:55:09 PM
|
|
|
TJO5
Posts: 147
Joined: 12/1/2007
Status: offline
|
Hello Zhi,
quote:
I don't believe that most of the people you see babbling insanely and loudly and interrupting a service are actually practicing that spiritual gift. I think they're showing off at worst, and just trying to do what they're expected to do regardless of leading of the Holy Spirit at best.
I think that those people do not understand the difference between a tongue which requires interpretation,and a prayer tongue. I have a friend who used to pray in tongues loudly in church,which caused a disruption as those present would wait for an interpretation that was not forthcoming- until he came to understand the difference and learned why one should not speak loudly in tongues in the church. Since I know him very well I can assure you that he wasn't trying to glorify himself,but he is a very fervent person of prayer.
quote:
I believe the concept that everyone must manifest the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues in order to be a Christian is incorrect, as speaking in tongues is not the only spiritual gift available and it is made quite clear scripturally that not everyone will have every single gift.
You are quite right- I disagree with those who think that you must speak in tongues.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 6:56:53 PM
|
|
|
Godhead
Posts: 273
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
|
What do these babblers really have that we should take them seriously? Can they change water into wine or walk on water even? When receiving this gift, do fiery tongues descend from heaven upon them amidst a sound of rushing wind and earthquakes? Seriously, all they do is chant nonsensical words. Give me a break!
_____________________________
The way the church is today, if any man come who is able to do the miraculous of any kind, he would have such influence over them as putty in the hands of a child.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 10:01:45 PM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 1733
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
What do these babblers really have that we should take them seriously? Can they change water into wine or walk on water even? When receiving this gift, do fiery tongues descend from heaven upon them amidst a sound of rushing wind and earthquakes? Seriously, all they do is chant nonsensical words. Give me a break!
I have received words of knowledge during those times.
I'm not sure you even believe in that anyway, or would trust me concerning it, but regardless. . .
_____________________________
-Ben-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 10:00:58 AM
|
|
|
manwe
Posts: 357
Status: offline
|
For those interested, they should consider checking out John Sherrill's book They Speak with Other Tongues (Chosen Books, 2004). It is a great account of the Pentecostal movement from a non-pentecostal's journalistic perspective. There is a mediocre review of it here.
Here is a great quote from the book:
quote:
“Are you sure you’re not making a basic mistake?” asked Dr. Ervin.
“I must be I am not coming up with any answers.”
“I think the mistake is to divorce tongues from the essential whole of which they are a part.” said Dr. Ervin. “Let me tell you a little story. I happen to be fond of church architecture. One day when I was out driving I found an exquisite little Gothic chapel. I stopped my car and got out to admire it.”
“But that church happened to have at its entrance a bright, red door. My eyes would try to follow the soaring lines lines of the building upward as Gothic architecture makes you do. but every they were jerked back to that red door. It was so flamboyant it kept me from seeing the whole picture.
“Tongues, John, are like that red door. As long as you stand outside your attention is going to be riveted there and you’re not going to be able to see anything else. Once you go through. however, you are surrounded by the thousand wonders of light and sound and form that the architect intended. You look around and that door isn’t even red on the inside. It’s there. It’s to be used. But it has taken its proper place in the design of the whole church.
“That’s what I’d hope for you, John. I think it’s time for you to walk through that door. If you really want to discover what the Pentecostal experience is all about, don’t concentrate on tongues, but step through the door and meet the Holy Spirit.”
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:18:05 PM
|
|
|
awaken
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
|
There are a lot of reformations over the years, I do not know a lot of the Pentecostal history....but maybe they were just returning to the first works(rev.2:5)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:33:56 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4623
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
There are a lot of reformations over the years, I do not know a lot of the Pentecostal history....but maybe they were just returning to the first works(rev.2:5)
Actually the first works returned to them.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 3:20:14 PM
|
|
|
gmc4Jesus
Posts: 102
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
|
I have not read this entire thread, but I do have some experience, observation and thoughts about the gift of tongues. I may not express all of my thoughts here, but I will make some comments.
1. I have witnessed people who spoke in tongues and believed that it enhanced their personal relationship with God.
2. I have witnessed people who thought that their speaking in tongues made them more holy than those who did not.
3. I have talked to people who came out of the speaking in tongues background and realized a greater understanding of the power and working of the Holy Spirit than they did before.
Most importantly, we should remember that when we stand before God, whether we spoke in tongues or not is not going to be anywhere on the final exam. The only matter that will count for or against us is: "Who is Jesus?" All of the other stuff we engage in when debating beliefs will be irrelevant to our eternal state of being. We either believe in Jesus and are saved or we don't and are lost.
If we would put half as much energy into reaching the lost by our Christian behavior as we do about speaking in tongues and other issues that will not matter in eternity, Christianity would be out growing all other religions and we would be accomplishing the Great Commission at a far greater pace.
Oh that we would spend more time getting to know Jesus and less time fussing about things that don't matter beyond this life.
God bless you all as you pursue God's wisdom on these matters.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 3:07:19 PM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 744
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
What do these babblers really have that we should take them seriously? Can they change water into wine or walk on water even? When receiving this gift, do fiery tongues descend from heaven upon them amidst a sound of rushing wind and earthquakes? Seriously, all they do is chant nonsensical words. Give me a break!
This is basically the same charge the mockers made in Acts 2. Now I think it is significant that you have all these different people hearing the disciples in their own language and then there are some mockers who thought the people were drunk. Now why would they think that if they were hearing the wonderful works of God in their own language? The mistake I believe that many make with this passage is that they associate the miracle with speaking when the emphesis of the miracle was on the hearing. What I believe happened is that you had people speaking in tongues and God allowed some to hear it in their own language but not the mockers. To them I'm sure it sounded like babling which is why they thought they were drunk.
Acts 2:4-16
4.And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance .
5.And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6.Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together , and were confounded , because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7.And they were all amazed and marvelled , saying one to another , Behold , are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8.And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born ?
9.Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10.Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome , Jews and proselytes,
11.Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12.And they were all amazed , and were in doubt , saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13.Others mocking said , These men are full of new wine.
14.But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15.For these are not drunken , as ye suppose , seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16.But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 6:48:28 PM
|
|
|
schupfNoodle
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/27/2006
Status: offline
|
Sounds like history repeating itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 2:55:01 PM
|
|
|
JesKlu
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
What do these babblers really have that we should take them seriously? Can they change water into wine or walk on water even? When receiving this gift, do fiery tongues descend from heaven upon them amidst a sound of rushing wind and earthquakes? Seriously, all they do is chant nonsensical words. Give me a break!
This is basically the same charge the mockers made in Acts 2. Now I think it is significant that you have all these different people hearing the disciples in their own language and then there are some mockers who thought the people were drunk. Now why would they think that if they were hearing the wonderful works of God in their own language? The mistake I believe that many make with this passage is that they associate the miracle with speaking when the emphesis of the miracle was on the hearing. What I believe happened is that you had people speaking in tongues and God allowed some to hear it in their own language but not the mockers. To them I'm sure it sounded like babling which is why they thought they were drunk.
Acts 2:4-16
4.And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance .
5.And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6.Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together , and were confounded , because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7.And they were all amazed and marvelled , saying one to another , Behold , are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8.And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born ?
9.Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10.Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome , Jews and proselytes,
11.Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12.And they were all amazed , and were in doubt , saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13.Others mocking said , These men are full of new wine.
14.But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15.For these are not drunken , as ye suppose , seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16.But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Yeah, but they actually spoke in other languages that other people speak. Meaning, they were speaking other earthly tongues that they didn't know but others knew. A person who has the true gift of tongues is speaking in another known human language, that they don't know themselves. And the gift of tongues back then was so crucial because they had to go and fulfill the Great Commission, and that means going into other lands with languages you don't understand. So, theres where the gift of tongues was crucial during that time. I believe they are still around and there are people who have the gift, but there are SO MANY ABUSERS that it is not funny. And those abusers, I bet, are just babbling their minds off. they're faking it. And I saw that, and got to witness that mindless babble myself in a Pentecostal church quite a few times. I will NOT confess that they were speaking in tongues. I knew they weren't. Maybe there was one or two in the whole congregation that were, who knows. But the vast majority of them were truly faking it. And that is where Godhead is coming from. He's talking about that mindless babble, not those who truly have the gift. There's a BIG difference.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/10/2008 3:01:56 PM >
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 5:59:21 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4623
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Yeah, but they actually spoke in other languages that other people speak. Meaning, they were speaking other earthly tongues that they didn't know but others knew. A person who has the true gift of tongues is speaking in another known human language, that they don't know themselves.
Well according to Scripture that is not always the case, and certainly not the case with prayer in tongues;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
See the "Speaking to God", and the part about no man understands as he Speaks mysteries".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 6:31:47 PM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
gmc4Jesus,
quote:
If we would put half as much energy into reaching the lost by our Christian behavior as we do about speaking in tongues and other issues that will not matter in eternity, Christianity would be out growing all other religions and we would be accomplishing the Great Commission at a far greater pace.
Actually, if you look at the statistics the charismatic churches are far outgrowing and out evangelizing those who don't believe in the baptism in the Spirit. So I would say the big hold up isn't us. Actually we're trying to make better disciples of those who think they already have all God has promised. We simply disagree with your POV. And we do so biblically as well as experientially. I wonder how much farther the kingdom would advance if all were Spirit baptized with the evidence of tongues, and not arguing the point? Alas, making disciples isn't just getting people born again. It is also leading believers into all that God has provided.
JesKlu,
quote:
...they actually spoke in other languages that other people speak.... A person who has the true gift of tongues is speaking in another known human language, that they don't know themselves.
1CO 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
Please read your bible more closely. The above verse clearly and succinctly disproves your understanding of this subject. You do not know the difference between your spirit praying in an angelic/heavenly language which no man understands...from...The Holy Spirit speaking a known language through you that men do understand.
Your spirit speaking to God through your yielded flesh...is simply the opposite of God's Spirit speaking to a fellow man through your yielded flesh.
< Message edited by Him4all -- 5/11/2008 3:38:19 PM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 6:36:53 PM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
RC,
Great minds thinking alike??? Sorry, I should try to be more humble I guess. Your post wasn't up when I posted and I think I'm just going to leave mine to hopefully drive home a point of truth...IOO (In Our Opinions  )
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 9:39:20 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4623
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
RC,
Great minds thinking alike??? Sorry, I should try to be more humble I guess. Your post wasn't up when I posted and I think I'm just going to leave mine to hopefully drive home a point of truth...IOO (In Our Opinions )
DR
DR, I think we could have the truth posted 50 times and those so dead set against the simplistic truth that the Bible teachses us concerning praying, singing, and prophesying in tongues would just zoom right over their heads, and past thier hearts.
Over the past 45 years I have had so many confused tongue deniers come to my Churches, I mean folks who would fight you over tongues, and when teaching with a gentle spirit they would finally saw the truth. Their lives changed, their walk with God changed, their relationship with friends changed and all for the better. That is so plainly put in the Book of Jude;
(Jud 1:20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
We all need so despertly need to be built up ourselves in our most Holy Faith, and God says through Jude that praying in the Holy Ghost (tongues) will get us there. Thousands of books have been written about this building up in the most Holy Faith, but prayer in tongues makes the connection that gets it done.
I still have some in my Church that are not Baptized with the Holy Ghost, but we all worship together in the unity of Faith; because we all understand this passage;
(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:40) Let all things be done decently and in order.
With the straightforwardness of this little passage I just do not see how Churches forbid the speaking, praying, and singing in tongues; but some Churches do.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 10:42:24 PM
|
|
|
awaken
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
|
Speaking in tongues is just one manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Everyone that is a christian has the Holy Spirit living in them (sealed). The gifts listed in Corinthians are just a manifestation of what we already have. Some just do not understand how to manifest them (ignorant), or taught that they no longer exist(unbelief in the manifestation).
Corinthians 12:7 says that each one(each christian) is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 11:26:52 AM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Awaken,
quote:
Everyone that is a christian has the Holy Spirit living in them (sealed).
I would say that your above statement doesn't line up with scripture. In Acts 8 the Samaritans were born again and water baptized but 'according to scripture' never received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:12-16). What they did receive 'when their spirit was born again' was a holy spirit just like Jesus was born with. The baptism of The Holy Spirit is a separate and distinctly different event, though it may occur concurrently.
GAL 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,
You were sealed at 'new birth' with the holy spirit of Jesus and not The Holy Spirit of God. The misleading capitalization was added by men who weren't Spirit baptized and didn't have the understanding we do today. On the cross of Calvary Jesus gave up His holy spirit and not The Holy Spirit of God.
LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!"
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 4:59:26 PM
|
|
|
awaken
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
|
I am confused now, You are saying when we believe we are sinners, Know what Christ did on the cross to save us from our sin, accept this and repent. This is not when the Holy Spirit enters you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 6:52:05 PM
|
|
|
JesKlu
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Speaking in tongues is just one manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Everyone that is a christian has the Holy Spirit living in them (sealed). The gifts listed in Corinthians are just a manifestation of what we already have. Some just do not understand how to manifest them (ignorant), or taught that they no longer exist(unbelief in the manifestation).
Corinthians 12:7 says that each one(each christian) is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good....
I believe that we all have diferent gifts, and tongues is just one of them. I do not believe they are extinct, but they are WIDELY abused. It is so hard these days to tell the difference between someone who really speaks in tongues, (who truly has the gift), between someone who is faking it. The true ones are so mixed up with the false it is so hard to tell who is truly speaking in tongues.
I believe the false speakers are the majority. The people who truly have the gift, I believe, are the minority. That is why so many Christians are wary of those who claim to speak in tongues.
And Him4All, the charismatic movement may be the fastest gowing, but that does not mean that is of God. Sometimes the fastest growing movements are also the first ones to have the heaviest decline.
And not only that, there are so many divisions in the charismatic/pentecostal movements that you have to question, "Is this really of God?" Because there are so many divisions in that movement, and we know divisions are not of God. I would say the denomination(s) that are the most united have the least "erraneous" doctrines.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 10:54:04 PM
|
|
|
rapturefish
Posts: 96
Status: offline
|
If we're honest, there are divisions aplenty in conservative denominations too. And numbers are in the end limited in terms of how they represent true growth. I've said in the past that yes, the P/c movement is the fastest-growing movement in the world over the last century, and that means we should look at it seriously and see what makes it tick. I think some of it has to be the Holy Spirit because that kind of growth is not only extremely unusual but it didn't start in any one place - rather, things sprouted up seemingly spontaneously in several unrelated places. But like frying a steak it is rather messy and for all the genuine good there is in there there are a lot of problems too.
Conservative churches have some less marketable plusses but nonetheless they are more stable and people are more likely to stick one they are in the church. But it's also harder to get people into these churches. They are as prone to division and splits as the rest of christendom, usually over doctrines and political infighting, and the same can be said for the P/c churches. This is because they are both human entities.
If people are worried about the genuineness of tongues, go back to the things mentioned in scripture - the fruit of a person's life is what counts more. Gifts are great and not to be despised, but they are to be used for the benefit of the body when used in the church setting. In the end, I think the question of whether a person's tongues are genuine or not is not a big issue. It is whether the person's life bears fruit of the Spirit. If they happen to speakin tongues and it sounds weird, then it doesn't matter, so long as they are showing the evidence of God in their lives.
As for tongues in general, real or not, that is also scripture. Scripture supports it, Paul supports it and doesn't deny it or discourage it. But he also gives it its place. When conservatives like to play down the importance of tongues there is truth in it. But because it happens to be the conservatives the P/c can tend to react because they think conservatives undervalue their importance, or even deny it. And that can be true too.
When we put aside those church cultural blinkers, and look at scripture and let it speak on its own we have to say that the supernatural spiritual gifts are for today, including tongues and prophecy. We also have to agree that after the bible there are no extra-biblical teachings or revelations, and the two points can work together without contradiction, observing that in the NT prophecy has more of an encouragement role and specific guidance that does not add any new teachings.
We see that the word does not elevate tongues highly in the church gathering (unless it is understood, ie by way of interpretation), but Paul valued it highly in the context of personal edification in his ministry life. He emphasises spiritual fruit, especially the way of love. Paul never put a stop to tongues 100% but gave guidelines for the church setting, ones that the prophets in the Corinthian church could not disagree with (because Paul said this was the Lord's command). That showed the authority of the Apostles and that the prophets in the NT did not have that authority as the OT prophets did.
In the end, neither the conservative or mainline churches nor the Pentecostal and charismatic churches can claim superiority - both sides have bad flaws that should not be repeated. But that being said, each side can learn from the other, and in fact, it would be necessary to work together in light of the days ahead, which are becoming more anti-Christian as cultural backlash increases against Christianity.
You need to be grounded in the word, you need to be led by the Spirit, and you need all the spiritual fruit and gifts you can to be effective in the fight against the dark things of this world.
RF !^)
_____________________________
-- rapturefish --
One happy barramundi  [<><]
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/13/2008 12:06:43 PM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Awaken,
quote:
when we believe we are sinners, Know what Christ did on the cross to save us from our sin, accept this and repent. This is not when the Holy Spirit enters you?
Did you read the scripture verses that I posted? Didn't they confirm that that these believers didn't get The Holy Spirit upon repentance, rebirth and water baptism? There are other scriptures that attest to this same fact but none are as well defined as Acts 8.
JesKlu,
quote:
The true ones are so mixed up with the false it is so hard to tell who is truly speaking in tongues.
If one isn't Holy Spirit baptized then I question what business they even have in judging tongues at all? You can judge the fruit well enough I should think, but should you judge the spiritual gifts if you aren't even walking in them yourself?
1CO 2:14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts (plural) from the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
Based upon the above scripture, I would say that anyone who doesn't walk in the gifts themself isn't even capable of judging whether a tongue is a true gift or not. Being "spiritual' isn't based upon being born again...it's based upon walking in 'manifestations from the Spirit' according to scripture. 1Cor 12 confirms this also.
Personally, I do believe in "false tongues" like you mentioned. I have even been in a deliverance ministry where we always asked those coming for ministry to pray in their prayer tongue, if they claimed to have one. We did that just to see if our spirit bore witness as to whether that tongue was genuine or not. But I certainly would never allow someone who didn't speak in tongues to make that judgment.
quote:
That is why so many Christians are wary of those who claim to speak in tongues.
My experience is that anyone who doesn't have something which someone else claims to have, is "wary" because they simply can't believe they don't have everything God would give them. Then, instead of asking questions, that they may come to believe, they forcefully defend their position of 'not having'. This, then shuts the door to faith and keeps them from ever receiving that which they don't have faith to believe for.
Rapturefish,
Even though a wee bit lengthy, I thought your post and imput was balanced and very well written.
< Message edited by Him4all -- 5/13/2008 3:21:21 PM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/13/2008 3:43:52 PM
|
|
|
awaken
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
|
Please excuse all my questions, I have just recently in the past year believed and spoke in tongues. I accepted Jesus as my Savior at 9 years old.....So you are saying that at nine I did not have the Holy Spirit...only when I started speaking in tongues?
I was raised Baptist. They taught the gifts did not exist anymore. Years later as I was studing this I realized that I was not taught correctly. I embraced this and prayed that He would show me the truth.
If salvation and Baptism are different, what do you recieve at salvation vs. baptism of Holy Spirit?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/13/2008 4:37:40 PM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 744
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Yeah, but they actually spoke in other languages that other people speak. Meaning, they were speaking other earthly tongues that they didn't know but others knew.
The Bible does not specifically state that they spoke other languages. It says that those listening each heard in their own language. The emphesis is on the hearing not the speaking.
quote:
A person who has the true gift of tongues is speaking in another known human language, that they don't know themselves.
Your definition of what true tongues are supposed to be contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 14:2
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
quote:
And the gift of tongues back then was so crucial because they had to go and fulfill the Great Commission, and that means going into other lands with languages you don't understand. So, theres where the gift of tongues was crucial during that time.
Most of the world and even the Romans at that time spoke Greek and even those who didn't speak Greek usually spoke two or three other languages. These people did not need to hear in their own native tongue for someone to speak to them.
quote:
I believe they are still around and there are people who have the gift, but there are SO MANY ABUSERS that it is not funny. And those abusers, I bet, are just babbling their minds off. they're faking it. And I saw that, and got to witness that mindless babble myself in a Pentecostal church quite a few times. I will NOT confess that they were speaking in tongues. I knew they weren't. Maybe there was one or two in the whole congregation that were, who knows. But the vast majority of them were truly faking it. And that is where Godhead is coming from. He's talking about that mindless babble, not those who truly have the gift. There's a BIG difference.
Again this is almost the same accusation the mockers made on the day of Pentecost.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/13/2008 5:02:56 PM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 744
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Please excuse all my questions, I have just recently in the past year believed and spoke in tongues. I accepted Jesus as my Savior at 9 years old.....So you are saying that at nine I did not have the Holy Spirit...only when I started speaking in tongues?
I was raised Baptist. They taught the gifts did not exist anymore. Years later as I was studing this I realized that I was not taught correctly. I embraced this and prayed that He would show me the truth.
If salvation and Baptism are different, what do you recieve at salvation vs. baptism of Holy Spirit?
In Acts 8 it does not say that they did not have the Holy Spirit but that the Holy Spirit was not yet fallen on them. This I believe was an allusion to what happened on the day of Pentecost. In John 20:22 Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost". Now there are some who try to say that this was a prophetic statement about what would happen on the day of Pentecost but the original language does not support this belief. The tense for the Greek word for "receive" is Aorist Imperative which means it was a command that happened at that time. Then 50 days later these same disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit. So these disciples received the Holy Spirit twice.
Also I think it is significant that the Holy Spirit chose to manifest himself as "tongues of fire" and that all of the disciples spoke in tongues. Why would God manifest that way if tongues were not an integral part of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I hope that helps.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/13/2008 9:25:48 PM
|
|
|
awaken
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
|
So you are saying you recieve the Holy Spirit Twice, once at salvation and once at Baptism?
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
