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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 3:29:05 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
How is the Holy Spirit praying according to the will of God through us with unknown words useless?
The tools(voice box, languages) that God gave are useless/pointless/not needed if the church, saints, or ministry cannot distinguish the language or voice box. Why, because gifts are for man not God. With a prayer language it is the Holy Spirit that comforts you, not the prayer language. Healing, teaching, giving, tongue speaking should be active(not passive) blessings. Every gift should be edifying in and of itself, that is why Paul makes understanding so important. you give because of a need, you teach because there is unlearned, you heal because there is sickness, You speak in tongues because there are diverse tongues, and you interpret because there is no understanding.
If the Holy Spirit is praying through me in tongues, it is not necessary for me to understand what is being said in order for God to understand and answer. The gift of praying in tongues is edifying not because I understand it but because the Holy Spirit is praying on my behalf. Also it helps to understand that there are two different gifts of tongues. One is a prayer language where the Holy Spirit in a believer prays to God the Father and the other is when God the Father through the Holy Spirit in a believer speaks to the church or other people.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 3:37:12 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
Where in the Bible does it say that self-edification is selfish?
i did not write that clear, the prayer language many times is used only for self edification. when clearly gifts have a three fold purpose -
1 for the equipping of the saints
2 for the work of ministry
3 for the edifying of the body of Christ
How does the prayer language fulfill that three-fold purpose when it is dedicated to one man who can't edify, do the work for, and equip others with it becasue he doesn't understand. Unlike every other gift a prayer language is the only one that is passive in edification.
Praying in tongues is not passive for the one praying since it's effectiveness is not based on our understanding but on the power of the Holy Spirit. Also the one praying in tongues is one of the saints and is part of the body of Christ and if it edifies us it is preparing us for the work of the ministry.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 5:49:49 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manwe
One may not know initially what one is praying in tongues, but one can pray for undersanding. You develop in it over time. It's akward at first (as is typical when learning a new language, you think you sound like an idiot). But in time you get more comfortable with it and it brings depth to one's prayer life. It also becomes normal and isn't "wierd."
Agreed.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 9:58:15 AM
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sunshinesoprano
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I asked another question a few posts ago and everyone was too busy with their spiritual banter to even answer it.
That's something that just drives me insane. Both of the main posters here know what they're talking about, but the way the information is presented comes in long, blathering paragraphs and I can neither make heads nor tails of what either of you are saying and I'm a very well-educated person.
manwe: thanks for that bit of information. I appreciate it.
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 11:51:41 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I asked another question a few posts ago and everyone was too busy with their spiritual banter to even answer it.
That's basically the same question i've been asking. i feel It is not the unknown tongue that edifies us, but the comfort that the HS gives us is what does the edifying, that is why i say we need to control the tongues without an interpretation. The HS can give us that comfort without the tongue, but most people don't want to realize that, because their experience has clouded their mind(i do believe in the reality of their experience though). Understanding of what the tongue says is edifying because the words of that prophecy can lift everyone up. On one hand the HS is used to edify without understanding, which means the tongues has no part in edification, but on the other hand the gift itselft is actually used to edify along with understanding.
Confession: i am new to the whole prayer language/tongues idea. Some things do not add up in my head, but then again i understand the head gets in the way of the spirit. I attend a church where many use a prayer language, that is why i have a spiked interest in this. i right now have no desire to have tongues or a prayer language, because every other gift is greater, which in turn has greater edification than tongues does. i would like prayer on this issue. I do not doubt the experience the HS gives people, and would love to see a pouring out of his power like that on me. In the end though the gift of my prayer language or tongues would need to have the three fold purpose: edifying of saints, work of the ministry, equipping the saints. The problem is i don't see evidence in churches of fulfilling the three fold purpose in prayer languages or tongues today.
Sorry, i write so long and babbly, but my mind flows when i write and i can't stop.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 11:57:28 AM
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sunshinesoprano
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jb:
Thanks. This is why I've been interested in it, too. I'm searching for a deeper experience with the Lord, and this is something I'd like to hear more about, but it's really hard to differentiate between opinion, experience, and fact sometimes...
blessings,
sss
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 12:16:52 PM
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lightshineon
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I believe in speaking in tounges, as one sign of being empowered of the Holy Spirit. I did say one of the ways. I do not think it happens everyday. I do think it is still around.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 12:28:07 PM
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manwe
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One thing you can do is read books by people who know what they are talking about and then too just do a lot of reading and sort of triangulate and connect the dots, spend time in meditation and prayer and put things togther.
Gordon't Fee's work 'Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God' would be hard to beat on issues of the spirit filled life and the impications of it.
Craig Keener wrote a book called 'Three crucial questions about the Holy Spirit' in the 3 Crucial Questions series that you'll find helpful. (He is no theological lightweight, he been to Duke).
You would also probably find Frank Macchia's brand new book just out called "Baptized in the Spirit : A Global Pentecostal Theology" helpful. Macchia is one of the leading scholars in the world on this subject.
You may not like reading and books can be expensive, but reading does help one learn more about stuff and allow one to intereact with it.
edit: Reading many books will not make you an expert, but it will certainly help you be somewhat informed and knowlegeable about the subject and point you in the right direction.
Also, know there is a lot of variance on this issue and there are no hard and fast answers. it takes a lot of time and prayer to work through the issues.
I hope this helps.
< Message edited by manwe -- 3/16/2006 1:55:23 PM >
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 12:51:20 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I asked another question a few posts ago and everyone was too busy with their spiritual banter to even answer it.
That's something that just drives me insane. Both of the main posters here know what they're talking about, but the way the information is presented comes in long, blathering paragraphs and I can neither make heads nor tails of what either of you are saying and I'm a very well-educated person.
manwe: thanks for that bit of information. I appreciate it.
sunshinesoprano,
I did answer your post just two posts after yours. Also I have tried to break down my answers into single subjects. I can't help if someone else is posting 20 questions at once. Again if there is a question that you have please feel free to ask it and I will try to answer it. Below is my reply to your question you posted.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Okay, let me interrupt here.
I can buy the 2nd infilling...that's not a problem for me.
Let's go back to the praying to oneself. I know people who pray in tongues who know what they're saying, and others who don't know.
What's the point if you don't know what you're saying? How can that be edifying?
I'm not trying to dispute here, just understand...
My spirit can communicate things to the Holy Spirit that I could not even comprehend with the natural mind. The Holy Spirit can also search things out that I would never be able to see or recognize even if I did see it.
Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2006 5:20:21 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
There were at least three times when it almost happened with me before it actually did. Remember Luke 11:4-13, Jesus won't give us a serpent if we ask for a fish. If we are His children and we are asking God for more of the Holy Spirit we don't have to be afraid of getting something from the devil. God bless.
What is the difference between the gift of tongues and a prayer language?
Can everyone have tongues or a prayer language?
i have more questions but i don't want this conversation to get sidetracked.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2006 6:01:20 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
What is the difference between the gift of tongues and a prayer language?
The difference has to do with purpose and direction. With the gift of tongues followed by an interpretation the direction is from God the Father to the church and the purpose is edification of the body as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12. Very few people have this gift. With the gift of tongues as a prayer language the direction is from the Holy Spirit in a believer to God the Father and the purpose is edification of the one praying. Also the Holy Spirit may pray for others without our knowing. Sometimes when I pray in tongues I have a sense of what I am praying for and other times I don't.
quote:
Can everyone have tongues or a prayer language?
i have more questions but i don't want this conversation to get sidetracked.
I believe everyone can have the gift of tongues as a prayer language but very few get the gift of tongues that would be followed by an interpretation. I believe the two different gifts of tongues is what has caused so much confusion because difficult for some to accept that there are two different gifts. In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul is discussing gifts given for ministry and not personal gifts. In chapter 13 he is showing the supremacy of love above all else. In chapter 14 he is addressing disorder and misuse of the gifts within the assembly and he make referrence to both gifts. What I believe was happening in Corinth was people who could pray in tongues were standing in the pulpit, so to speak, and praying in tongues but no interpretation followed because they were the type of tongues that were supposed to have an interpretation.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2006 6:23:53 PM
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jbbaab44
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So what category does a prayer language go under? A gift, or a fruit of the spirit, because you just said that not everyone has all the gifts like tongues or interpretation, but we all have a prayer language so does that make it a fruit of the spirit? I don't think it is but want to see what you say.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2006 6:30:48 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
So what category does a prayer language go under? A gift, or a fruit of the spirit, because you just said that not everyone has all the gifts like tongues or interpretation, but we all have a prayer language so does that make it a fruit of the spirit? I don't think it is but want to see what you say.
It is just a gift because it is not an indication of holiness or righteousness. Paul said, though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity I am nothing. A person can pray in tongues and live like the devil because God doesn't take back His gifts once He gives them. This also has caused a lot of confusion in the church because there are many who abuse the gifts or aren't walking with God even though they go through the motions. Sometimes people do things just because they don't know any better. Either way it can have a very negative impact on others.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2006 6:46:34 PM
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sunshinesoprano
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Well, this was really weird...I felt something welling up in me...like I could almost do it...but it was so strange I guess I was afraid to let it happen!
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 11:59:58 AM
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jbbaab44
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I just thought of this over the weekend. The two reasons to have the ability of a prayer language are one, spirit making intercession for us, two, edification of self. I am trying hard to believe this tongues and prayer language thing, but some things do not add up. Based on the first reason, since i do not have a prayer language, I do not have the Holy Spirit making intercession on behalf of my groanings. But you on the other hand your groanings are heard by God. This concept is so contradictory to God as a father who wants to hear his children regardless if they say it or not. If your response is that God hears my groanings also then, then the "spirit making intercession on behalf of our groanings" is not sound proof for personal prayer languages. I don't need a second baptism of the HS power to come upon me in order for my groanings to be heard also.
Now, what about edification of self? a prayer language does not edify. The words that i don't understand that are coming out of my mouth do not edify. Words of love edify becuase they are understood as love, words of teaching edify because they are understood as knowledge. So to correct your experience you are having while you are speaking in a prayer language, it is the HS that edifies and fulfills your spiritual or physical need. So then "our prayer language edifies us" is not sound proof for personal prayer languages.
A prayer language and how it works is contradicting to all other gifts. The actual, physical gift of giving fulfills a need, the actual physical act of teaching fulfills a void of knowledge, the actual physical act of loving fulfills a void of love, but the actual physical act of a prayer language does nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Arguing that a prayer language is an act of fulfilling a communication barrier between us and God is wrong. Especially saying if God keeps that barrier there until we are blessed with the second baptism is dead wrong. My groaning are heard day one, second one when i am reborn, and saved eternally, and that goes for everyone.
I believe in your experiences, i believe in your tongues, i believe that the Holy Spirit gives you some words, but i do believe that your doctrine is off. we are all saved under Jesus' gospel, and that is he WAS here and already saved us, John's gospel was that Jesus IS here now and he will save us. The OT gospel was that Jesus WILL come and will save us. That is why there is confusion in minds about the early NT. A conversion had to be taken place, and the holy Spirit couldn't move on people that didn't believe that Jesus WAS here already. All the people in the upper room on the day of pentecost were saved under Jesus baptism, that is why they all received the HS when it came and didn't need hands to be put on them. Not unless you think Jesus put his hands on 120 people.
Sorry this is so long, but i believe for now that tongues and a prayer language are the same.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 1:26:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
I don't need a second baptism of the HS power to come upon me in order for my groanings to be heard also.
I think what you are missing here is that it is not your groaning that are the issue; the Word says;
(Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
when we (you) don't know what to pray, it is the Holy Spirit that prays for you. It is not your groanings but the Holy Spirit's groanings for you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Now, what about edification of self? a prayer language does not edify. The words that i don't understand that are coming out of my mouth do not edify.
You of course are entitled to your opinion, but the Scripture differs;
(Jud 1:20) But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
The Word of God says that if you pray in the Holy Spirit you will be edified, no mention of understanding or not, I have to agree with the Scriptures.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
A prayer language and how it works is contradicting to all other gifts. i am reborn, and saved eternally, and that goes for everyone.
I am glad that you are reborn, but have reservations about your statement everybody being being reborn. Also, as for a prayer language being conteaditory to the other gifts; you can feel that way if you so desire, as for me and mine we will believe that God is not contradictory, and that all things of Christ continue;
(Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 3:17:55 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
I just thought of this over the weekend. The two reasons to have the ability of a prayer language are one, spirit making intercession for us, two, edification of self. I am trying hard to believe this tongues and prayer language thing, but some things do not add up. Based on the first reason, since i do not have a prayer language, I do not have the Holy Spirit making intercession on behalf of my groanings. But you on the other hand your groanings are heard by God. This concept is so contradictory to God as a father who wants to hear his children regardless if they say it or not. If your response is that God hears my groanings also then, then the "spirit making intercession on behalf of our groanings" is not sound proof for personal prayer languages. I don't need a second baptism of the HS power to come upon me in order for my groanings to be heard also.
It is not about God hearing our groanings but about the Holy Spirit making intercession for us according to the will of God with His groanings. There is no contradiction because God always hears our prayers, spoken or unspoken, but we don't all have the Holy Spirit praying on our behalf. There is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit which occurs after the new birth.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 3:26:18 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Jud 1:20) But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
The Word of God says that if you pray in the Holy Spirit you will be edified, no mention of understanding or not, I have to agree with the Scriptures.
Should we pray in anything but the spirit? if you know of another way to pray let me know.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 3:31:50 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Now, what about edification of self? a prayer language does not edify. The words that i don't understand that are coming out of my mouth do not edify. Words of love edify becuase they are understood as love, words of teaching edify because they are understood as knowledge. So to correct your experience you are having while you are speaking in a prayer language, it is the HS that edifies and fulfills your spiritual or physical need. So then "our prayer language edifies us" is not sound proof for personal prayer languages.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:3a, 14, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself" and "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Why do I have to understand what is said for it to edify me? The Greek word for edify just means to "build up" which is not necessarily dependant upon us understanding what is said. Also if the Holy Spirit is praying to God the Father, how is that not edifying?
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 3:33:48 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
when we (you) don't know what to pray, it is the Holy Spirit that prays for you. It is not your groanings but the Holy Spirit's groanings for you.
Last time i checked a groaning isn't a language of man or angels. So I'm sure its talking about our heart groaning. Look up groaning in greek it says nothing of words. Actually the greek word is based off of another which means to sign within ourselves.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2006 3:39:25 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I am glad that you are reborn, but have reservations about your statement everybody being being reborn. Also, as for a prayer language being conteaditory to the other gifts; you can feel that way if you so desire, as for me and mine we will believe that God is not contradictory, and that all things of Christ continue;
I know the bible/God doesn't contradict itself. I am saying that man's doctrine that is used to prove the prayer language contradicts the bible. So i gave examples of how other gifts are specifically, and actively used. I stated that the pudding behind prayer languages do not coincide with other gifts.
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