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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 4:46:43 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
quote:
Rom 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." One of the most potent passages which completely reassures true believers that there is absolutely nothing which can separate us from Christ - nothing.
It doesn't say "nothing".
I can't understand why so many seek "complete reassurance" or "absolute assurance" in the first place as its contrary to what FAITH is all about.
Why can't you just be believing in His Word and accept the HOPE that He has given us?
Hope = elpis, meaning: to anticipate with pleasure; confident expectation; faith, hope.
Acts 2:26 -
Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
Acts 23:6 -
But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
Acts 24:15 -
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
Acts 26:6 -
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers.
Rom 5:2 -
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:4 -
and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Rom 5:5 -
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 8:20 -
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 8:24-25 -
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Rom 12:12 -
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
Rom 15:4 -
For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:12-13 -
And again, Isaiah says: "There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope." Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1Cor 9:10 -
Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Cor 13:13 -
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1Cor 15:19 -
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
Gal 5:5 -
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Eph 1:18 -
the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 2:12 -
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 4:4 -
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
Col 1:15 -
because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
Col 1:23 -
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col 1:27 -
To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1Thess 1:3 -
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
1Thess 4:13 -
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Thess 5:8 -
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
2Thess 2:16 -
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
1Tim 1:1 -
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
Tit 1:2 -
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Tit 2:13 -
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 3:7 -
that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Heb 3:6 -
but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Heb 6:11 -
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
Heb 6:18-19 -
that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
Heb 7:19 -
for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 10:23 -
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
1Peter 1:3 -
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Peter 1:13 -
Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Peter 1:21 -
who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
1Peter 3:15 -
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
1John 3:3 -
And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 4:50:24 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
If our abiding is the assurance of our salvation then our ability to abide is the crux and basis of our salvation. On the other hand, if God’s work in and through the Lord Jesus Christ is the assurance of our salvation, then His ability is the crux and basis for all boasting.
"Ability" means: the capacity or power to do something; quality of being able.
It is NOT how well we abide, it is just that we DO abide. Again, our "ability" to abide is not the basis of our assurance.
God's work through the HS is our assurance. In order for the HS to do His work, we must ABIDE.
quote:
Our willingness to abide is the fruit of God’s work in us, not the cause.
I see no where in scripture that "willingness to abide" is a fruit of the spirit. Yet, I DO see that if we abide, we will produce fruit. God does NOT make us willing to abide -- such a statement is contradictory. How can we be willing if we are made to do it? That you say it is "OUR" willingness, is the only truth to that statement.
quote:
quote:
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I boast in the Lord, not in my abiding.
Statements such as this are perplexing to me, as I can't see where they come from or the reason for them. Who claims to be boasting in their abiding?
It is perplexing to me that it is perplexing to you. I made this statement with the assumption that most would respond with an Amen. Many don’t “claim” to be boasting in their abiding, but put such emphasis upon it that it is hard to think otherwise.
Forgive me for thinking you were making judgmental assumptions ... oh, wait ... you were! And, you were also assuming you would get a pat on the back for that??? Me thinkest you assume too much. Need I remind you of what happens when you assume?
It is your misjudgment that I (since it was in response to me) or anyone suggested they boasted in their abiding. That we are commanded to abide in Christ does NOT make it boasting to say we must abide in Christ. Besides, if it were boasting, it would be boasting "in Christ", as it is Him we are abiding in.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 5:29:31 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3637
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Are you contending that what some write here is merely opinion but what you write is absolute truth?
Absolutely not, Covaan -- and, I think you know that. No, I didn't know that; that is why I asked.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
When something is stated without scripture to back it up, it is merely opinion. We all have offered our opinions. What I write NOW -- this is my opinion. But, scripture is truth.
Refutation is presenting scripture to demonstrate the falseness or error of one's opinion.
If an opinion can be scripturally refuted, the scripture presented in opposition to the opinion must then be refuted. If it cannot be, then truth is revealed. We all read the Scriptures through our backgrounds, experiences, other items we have read, and what we have been taught by our most favored teachers, then announce what we have received as "truth."
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 7:20:18 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 45
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all of you out there who disagree with WildbyNature, you might as well save your breath. I have never seen anyone who twists scripture and talks so much just to hear himself.
All we have as human beings, is God's promises. we cant even hope in our faith, but only in his faithfulness! And I, for one KNOW his faithfulness will never fail because his word says so!
Everyone has faith in something. But, Faith is not what saves us... it is GRACE that saves us through faith and that faith through which were saved, by GRACE, is not even from ourselves, but it too is a gift from God.
Eph. 2.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
WildbyNature, I know you will disagree, but why would that supprise me? You don't seem to want to be secure. Why would anybody not want to be secure?
Everything in this world is uncertain and it is assurance, security and certainty that everyone desires. That can only be found in God's unconditional promises, wherein there is no chance of us screwing it up. Because, if we could screw it up, we would!
Lets give Jesus the honor and glory he deserves for fixing our screw up's once and for all!
It is finished! Get it?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 9:04:59 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 45
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.
This issue is probably the single most devisive belief between Christians in the entire world. It's sad really, that we put so much effort (myself included) into proving which side is right and which is wrong when there is a world of lost and hurting people out there who need to know about the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
I personally don't see how I could ever be an effective witness for Christ if I had to continually worry about maintaining my own salvation. Some have no problem with it and that's great.
However, for me to believe I could loose the eternal life that God has given me through his son Jesus, is to stir up fear in my soul and cause me to become self-centered and only concerned about doing what I needed to do in order to maintain my salvation.
To me, this would leave very little time to share the good news (if it could then, even be called that) of Jesus Christ with others and that, as Christians, is what were called to do.
Furthermore, I just don't see how I could approch someone who openly admitted he/she had not accepted Jesus as thier personal savior, if my message was; "you know your a sinner and God knows your a sinner, but he loves you anyway, he has given his son Jesus as full payment of all our sins and he wants to save you right now by simply calling upon him and accepting the payment he has made for your sins at the cross of calvery." Then turning around and saying, but, even if you sincerely beleive this, there is still a chance you won't go to heaven if...."
I just don't see the GOOD NEWS in that type of message. What I do see is a life in Christ that is full of bondage and fear. How could that be appealing to anyone?
I know there are those of you who do not see it that way and I'm not condeming you for it. I don't have that athority. And many of you, I'm sure, have led countless souls to Christ and I praise God for that.
I guess my biggest problem is this... Those of you who dont beleive you are forever God's Child once you have accepted his Son Jesus as your personal savior, seem to have an accusing and sometimes judgemental attitude tword your brothers and sisters in Christ, based on the deeds of the flesh, when we know, according to scripture, that all flesh is sinful.
This is usually seen, by most of us who adhere to OSAS, as an attack, not on us, but on the finality of what Christ accomplished on the cross for us all.
however I don't believe that is the intention of most, if not all of you who don't adhere to OSAS.
Nevertheless, from where you stand, it seems as though the concept of Grace has eluded you and many of you are quick to make judgments about us who believe we are eternally secure, just because were imperfect, as Gods word tells us we are.
Many of you probably think that, just because we believe were eternally secure in Christ, it puts us at a great risk of loosing favor with God and thus our salvation. Could it be that you have lost site of the fact that it's not what we have done, do or will do that makes us acceptable to God, but it is what Jesus Christ has done for us all? And that which he did can never be undone.
While many here may believe that those of you who do not beleive in OSAS have probably never really even been saved, I cannot say that nor do I believe they should. I will leave that between you and God.
I really would like to see this thread ended here and lets go forward in knowing that we are loved beyond what we can even fully comprehend, by God. If Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, how much more does he love us now that he has made us his children through his resurrection?
Let us spread the Gospel of hope.
Yours in Christ,
Mark
Now those of you who want to beleive you can loose your salvation after God has saved you, that is your perogitive.
But, please stop trying to convince me that I sould be afraid because I don't. That in itself, suggest that I must do certain things or not do certain things to preserve the gift of eternal life that God has given me through his Son Jesus, which would ultimately make salvation the results of my works. The Bible is clear on that issue.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 11:10:17 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3637
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From: a mother who let me live
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As one who has lived on both side of this issue, this is the bottom line for me:
Have I been forgiven? Have I been changed?
Then, the questions are how do I live my life? What demonstrates that the L-rd is with me? What I do/don't do will not save me, but what I do/don't do demonstrates whether or not the L-rd is truly L-rd to me.
When the Arminian-believer tells me that I am lost, because I admit to not being perfect, I know better. My "feet" are, without question, on that Solid Rock.
The concerns I have had with regard to Arminian-believers I know personally, according to their own doctrine, they are lost. That really scares me, because while I strongly dislike their church and many of the things they do, I don't dislike them as people. I just don't know if they are really saved, and it worries me.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 8:57:00 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
I agree with that -- I believe I am secure because I AM BELIEVING
I know whom I HAVE BELIEVED and am persuaded that HE IS ABLE to keep that which I HAVE COMMITTED unto Him against that day.
See the difference?
Nope.
You interpret this verse as the literal English translation without taking the passage, let alone the whole counsel of God, into consideration. Whereas, I interpret with verse by looking to the Greek, the usage of the word in scripture, the context of the passage and sound doctrine.
As I've said, according to the Greek and the usage of the word in scripture -- "have believed" means "have entrusted"; that "He is able", does not mean that He will -- the scriptural usage denotes that He is mighty; "to keep" means to guard against; "have committed" means "deposited"; "that day" is referring to the day of the Lord/day of Salvation/day of Redemption.
If you look at the PASSAGE, you would see your literalism of the English translation contradicts the next two verses (not to mention other passages of scripture and Paul's message throughout his epistles).
If, as you read it, Paul's faith and committment was a thing of the past and need not be continued, He wouldn't admonish us to "hold fast" "in faith"/"Jesus" the Word preached or "keep by the Holy Spirit" in you, that "good thing which was committed" -- until "that day".
2Tim 1:12-14:
For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
Clearly, the idea that "having believed" at one time in the past is all that is necessary, is not scripturaly accurate.
I choose to hold fast in faith and keep the faith. If you don't, that's your choice. (If you believe in freewill, of course.)
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 8:58:05 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
I've repeatedly asked Ross to refute the scripture I've presented in opposition to his opinion. He has not done this. Until he does, it remains his opinion -- and, the scripture presented against the opinion as truth.
I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
I guess, because this IS the Theology section, I was looking for a Theological discussion about the doctrine of eternal security. My bad.
quote:
I have presented scripture to support my position which you twist into something different.
One verse offered (some repeatedly) that does not take intent, context, usage or sound doctrine into account does NOT support a position. That I have taken these things into account does NOT mean I have "twisted" scripture.
quote:
I don't know what it would take to convince you that you are the one who merely holds an opinion which is not supported by scripture.
Proof.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 9:03:07 AM
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apostolic862004
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/14/2007
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I believe in eternal security. When I get to heaven, I will be eternally secure!!! Till then, I will earnestly contend for the faith!!!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 10:17:57 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: apostolic862004
I believe in eternal security. When I get to heaven, I will be eternally secure!!! Till then, I will earnestly contend for the faith!!!
AMEN !!!
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 10:23:19 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
all of you out there who disagree with WildbyNature, you might as well save your breath. I have never seen anyone who twists scripture and talks so much just to hear himself.
You bowed out of this discussion a few pages ago, and you came back just to personally attack me? Should I be honored?
As usual, when one's belief is attacked and they can't attack the argument against their belief, they attack the person. Unfortunately, such an attack just discredits one further.
I'm sorry if it offends you that I offer as much information as I can to back up my view. I would think that offers us more to discuss, or in your case, more to argue against me -- rather than me just quoting a verse of scripture and saying it means "this", as some do. But, I guess not.
Remember, you don't have to read my posts if they bother you.
quote:
All we have as human beings, is God's promises. we cant even hope in our faith, but only in his faithfulness! And I, for one KNOW his faithfulness will never fail because his word says so!
Everyone has faith in something. But, Faith is not what saves us... it is GRACE that saves us through faith and that faith through which were saved, by GRACE, is not even from ourselves, but it too is a gift from God.
Eph. 2.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
WildbyNature, I know you will disagree, but why would that supprise me?
I don't disagree with that. Surprised? If you had read my posts, you wouldn't be surprised.
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You don't seem to want to be secure. Why would anybody not want to be secure?
Obviously, you haven't read my posts. I have stated that I believe I am secure -- because I am believing. Since such security is from God, everybody should want to be secure in God. That is why I argue against OSAS -- it is a false security that is placed in man's doctrine as opposed to true security which is only found by abiding in Him.
Many men don't come to Christ because they are afraid their lives will be changed forever -- and they're right. The same is true with those who wish to profess belief one time and be assured that no matter what they do, their salvation is secure -- they are afraid. That is why we must have faith. The Bible tells us 365 times not to be afraid -- that's one time for every day in the year. God has given those who believe in His Word a daily reminder to not be afraid. As my signature says: Fear not, just keep on believing.
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Everything in this world is uncertain and it is assurance, security and certainty that everyone desires.
As Christians we are in this world, but we are not of it. I don't desire assurance, security and certainty in this world -- I desire the assurance, security and certainty given to me through Hope in Jesus Christ.
quote:
That can only be found in God's unconditional promises, wherein there is no chance of us screwing it up. Because, if we could screw it up, we would!
God's promise of salvation is not "unconditional". The deal is -- if we abide in Him, He'll abide in us. Without both parties keeping their part of the covenant (agreement), there is no salvation. Without believing in abiding, that's how "we could screwed it up" -- and, many do.
quote:
Lets give Jesus the honor and glory he deserves for fixing our screw up's once and for all!
Scripture says that He died once FOR all mankind, not once AND for all "screw ups". Your's is a common error of OSAS that adds to God's word and changes the meaning.
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It is finished! Get it?
Yup. Do you? Christ's work is finished. Not ours. He faithfully and obediently fulfilled God's Will for Him. Now we need to faithfully and obediently fulfill God's Will for us that BEGAN with Christ's finished work. Its all there in The Book.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 10:46:37 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
Now those of you who want to beleive you can loose your salvation after God has saved you, that is your perogitive.
If you understood the position you are arguing against, you would know that we don't believe salvation can be lost after God has saved us. We simply don't believe we have reached the end of our faith -- we were saved (justification), are being saved (sanctification), and will be saved (glorification) -- on the Day of Salvation.
Until that Day, the promise of the gift of salvation can be rejected/dismissed/given back/thrown away -- however you want to put it -- BUT "losing" salvation is a term coined by OSAS, not its opponents.
If you believe you have reached the end of your faith and it is no longer necessary, that is YOUR prerogative (I corrected your spelling).
quote:
But, please stop trying to convince me that I sould be afraid because I don't.
This is a discussion. No one is trying to convince you of anything, let alone that you have to be afraid. You are taking personally things written against a doctrine, that you may or may not fully agree with.
For example, if I imply that many who believe in OSAS are not abiding, that is not directed at YOU. I don't know you. The fact that you are on this board would lead me to believe you ARE abiding -- whether you believe God is making you abide or whether you are deciding to abide out of faith. But again, I don't know you.
Scripture says YOU need to evaluate YOURself. I'm not evaluating anyone -- only a doctrine.
quote:
That in itself, suggest that I must do certain things or not do certain things to preserve the gift of eternal life that God has given me through his Son Jesus, which would ultimately make salvation the results of my works. The Bible is clear on that issue.
The Bible is, but apparently you are not. The only thing we must do is believe -- a continued state. If you don't feel you need to have faith to be saved, then there is a deeper issue here.
The gift of eternal life doesn't need to be preserved -- it already is -- its eternal. Its reserved in heaven for those who Christ finds in the faith when He returns. What we have now is a promise of receiving that gift -- He is bringing it with Him when He returns.
A salvation by works is one that is based on the OT Mosaic and Levitical laws -- as opposed to faith in Christ. Suggesting that opponents of OSAS are basing thier salvation on works because they are abiding in Christ is nothing but a strawman. We have all come to Christ by faith, not works.
This debate is over what happens after we come to the cross for salvation -- do we need to keep believing and abide in Him, or is it a done deal because we believed at one time in the past.
As I recall, in our past discussions, you compared the cross to an elevator -- once you reached it you got in and were taken right up to heaven -- whereas, I said the cross is not a "stop sign", it is a "one way" sign pointing down the narrow road we must travel to find our salvation.
If you want to continue in this debate, lets recognize we have all come to the cross the same way -- and lets debate our beliefs as they really are. We don't have to convince the other, but we should understand the other. After all, we are both sons of God and brothers in Christ.
Sorry, but your personal attacks will not disuade me. I stand firm in the faith.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 11:50:35 AM
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propitiated4
Posts: 593
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
all of you out there who disagree with WildbyNature, you might as well save your breath. I have never seen anyone who twists scripture and talks so much just to hear himself.
All we have as human beings, is God's promises. we cant even hope in our faith, but only in his faithfulness! And I, for one KNOW his faithfulness will never fail because his word says so!
Everyone has faith in something. But, Faith is not what saves us... it is GRACE that saves us through faith and that faith through which were saved, by GRACE, is not even from ourselves, but it too is a gift from God.
Eph. 2.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
WildbyNature, I know you will disagree, but why would that supprise me? You don't seem to want to be secure. Why would anybody not want to be secure?
Everything in this world is uncertain and it is assurance, security and certainty that everyone desires. That can only be found in God's unconditional promises, wherein there is no chance of us screwing it up. Because, if we could screw it up, we would!
Lets give Jesus the honor and glory he deserves for fixing our screw up's once and for all!
It is finished! Get it?
Thanks for the warning.
_____________________________
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 12:13:35 PM
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propitiated4
Posts: 593
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I stand firm in the faith.
How can you stand firm in the faith , with no assurance of the faith?
You who say you can't lose your salvation, even though God takes His gift of grace and then gives it again. Does that mean one who believes you can lose your salvation, can live like the devil as he pleases, and then come back to God when he sees fit?
_____________________________
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 12:34:54 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3637
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: propitiated4
How can you stand firm in the faith , with no assurance of the faith?
In the group I was in, we did, indeed, stand firm in "the faith," but our faith was (first of all) in the organization and (second) in our own ability to "stand." We were, in fact, quite proud of our ability to avoid sinning, as the public testimonies there demonstrated.
Not long before I was kicked out, I remember as though it was yesterday one man in the church I attended standing there, his face glowing and flushed, his eyes animated, smiling widely as he talked, while he literally told us how holy he was. Some years earlier, I would have thought it was a great testimony, but by then, I had figured things out.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 5:15:55 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
As usual, when one's belief is attacked and they can't attack the argument against their belief, they attack the person. Unfortunately, such an attack just discredits one further.
I didn't think you were evaluating anyone, as you stated above. However you admit here that it is my belief your attacking.
Whatever, I don't take it is an attack on me personally anyway. But rather I see it as an attack on the truth of God's word and that is what bothers me, that your opinions dishearten so many.
You go on ranting that no one is eternally secure in Christ and you don't expect that to offend anyone? Christ is our anchor, our refuge, our savior, and our very life.
Of course you will not disagree with the statement that were not eternally secure in Christ, and only say we are secure as long as we stay in Christ. but you will not say what we must "do" to stay in Christ. why is that? If we had to do anything to stay in Christ wouldn't that make our salvation ultimately the results of our doing and not God's?
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This debate is over what happens after we come to the cross for salvation -- do we need to keep believing and abide in Him, or is it a done deal because we believed at one time in the past.
What is your interpretation of "abiding in Him"?
Eph. 1.11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted F2 in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Notice the above scripture is all in the "past tense".
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If you don't feel you need to have faith to be saved, then there is a deeper issue here.
I never said we didn't need faith to be saved, I said even the faith through which were saved by GRACE, is a gift from God. That leaves us nothing to boast about, concerning our faith.
To say we have to "continually believe" in order to remain saved is to imply that we can never, under any circumstances of life, even have a brief doubt. For at the very moment we allow doubt in is the very moment we are no longer saved. This is simply a lie.
The bible is full of instances where even Jesus's deciples doubted. Look at Peter for instance, who openly denied Jesus three times because he was afraid for his own Life. However, the Lord
had forgiven him, even before he did it.
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Sorry, but your personal attacks will not disuade me. I stand firm in the faith.
Disuade you from what? you seem to think if you ever, for one second, give in to the the FACT that you are eternally secure once you have believed in Jesus Christ as your personal savior, that it is at that point you have actually let your guard down and have become vulnerable to being lost forever. How silly is that?
There is no such thing as " I believed on Monday, but on Tuesday I didn't beleive, then on Thrusday, I believed again, but then Saturday rolled around and I didn't beleive again.
Either someone believes or they don't. 
I will go ahead and tell you, I have an anxiety disorder known as OCD and also a Panic Disorder. These have, at times in my life, led me into deep depression. I don't care who you are... when your depressed like that, you have no happiness, no joy, no sense of purpose, you feel totally abandoned and you don't know why! Then your every thought becomes negative and doubtful and you hate yourself for it, which only perpetuates the guilt you have for feeling the way you do even when you want nothing more than to feel the Joy, happiness, love and assurance that you once did.
Yes, "my" faith may, at times, fail me. But, Christ's faithfullness never will!
2 Tim. 2.11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2007 6:40:19 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
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By the way, WildbyNature,
I'm sorry, if I seem harsh twords your understanding of the scriptures. I don't mean to be. Lord knows I don't understand everything about God... I just know he loves us.
I guess it's just because I have been through so much emotional pain and severe depression lately (for about the past 18 mos) that I sometimes react harshly tword's others who disagree with me on an issue that I "feel" is so vitally important to the emotional well being of all Christians. And that is to KNOW we are Loved unconditionally by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sincerely,
Mark
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2007 6:43:57 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1641
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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WildByNature
quote:
So you admit we are unworthy for Christ to abide in us at all.
Of course. The word "admit" does not properly convey my position. It would be clearer to say that I am a proponent of the fact that we are unworthy for Christ to abide in us at all. As a matter of fact, I will say that Christ abides in us in spite of ourselves. He abides in us according to His good purpose and will. He has cleansed us, caused us to be born again and dwells within us through the Holy Spirit.
All your comments on my statement concerning "unworthy thoughts" I will pass on, since you did not understand my intent. By "unworthy thoughts" I was referring to sinful thinking which is unworthy for us to think. This sinful thinking, as all sin, is a result of unbelief. I say this because those who see the desirability of Christ and relish Him above all things will not submit himself to sinful thinking or any sin for that matter. This unbelief does not condemn a Christian to hell, even if he struggles with it.
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I read in 1 Thes 5:19 that we are not to quench the Holy Spirit, but fail to see from Scripture that God’s promise to complete that which He has begun can be quenched. We are not told that we cannot quench the HS -- we are admonished "not to quench" the HS. So, then it must be possible to do.
To "quench" in the Greek is sbennumi, means: to extinguish (literally or figuratively): - go out, quench.
We see this word "quench" also used in Eph 6:16: "above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one."
We learn from Psalm 7:13, that “His arrows He maketh fiery arrows” represents temptation thrown at us by satan. In this verse in Eph, we learn that "the shield of faith" "quenches" those temptations -- puts them out, extinguishes them.
Unless you believe that faith can NOT extinguish the temptations of the devil -- help us to overcome temptation -- then we must render the "quenching" of the HS as overcoming the HS.
If it is possible to quench the HS, then it is possible to extinguish the HS, have the HS go out or overcome the influence of the HS. Without the HS, the work of sanctification that leads to salvation is lost.
From my perspective if it were not for the work of God within us we would all extinguish or quench the Spirit and be lost forever. All glory and praise goes to God for working in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure (He gives us the desire, the affections, the relishing of the things of God through regeneration) and for promising to complete the work in us that He has begun. A genuine believer - one in whom God is at work - may fall in sin, but will never be ultimately lost.
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You don't physically get a new heart.
Who said anything about getting a physical heart?
I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. (Jeremiah 24:7 NASB95)
And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20 NASB)
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26-27 NASB)
You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. (2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NASB)
Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. (1 John 2:7-8 NASB95)
In regeneration we are made new creations, have been given new hearts with the law of God written on them. The law was external, but now the command is true in us. Our very affections and desires tend towards obeying Christ because we love and enjoy Christ and His holiness.
quote:
Again, that "desire" to be saved is from the HS, not OURSELVES. If we quench the HS, we lose the desire to be saved.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB)
quote:
We are NOT "irresistibly" drawn to Him. If that were the case, all men would be saved, as God draws all men to Christ. Please see my post #3166.
A genuine Christian may not think he is "irresistibly" drawn to Christ, but my experience is that Christ is the ultimate value and pleasure. His holiness, justice, wrath, mercy, grace, forbearance, lovingkindness, all found in the cross of Christ are fearfully wonderful to me. He is irresistible to those who see Him for whom He really is
For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6 NASB)
Those who do not see are those who are blinded by Satan
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4 NASB)
When "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" is seen, it is irresistibly beautiful and compelling to the renewed heart. This is why a genuine believer is grieved when he sins for he has sinned against love; against a loving heavenly Father.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2007 7:28:36 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1641
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
If our abiding is the assurance of our salvation then our ability to abide is the crux and basis of our salvation. On the other hand, if God’s work in and through the Lord Jesus Christ is the assurance of our salvation, then His ability is the crux and basis for all boasting.
"Ability" means: the capacity or power to do something; quality of being able.
It is NOT how well we abide, it is just that we DO abide. Again, our "ability" to abide is not the basis of our assurance.
God's work through the HS is our assurance. In order for the HS to do His work, we must ABIDE.
I agree with your definition of “ability”. God has given genuine believers the ability and desire to abide. We desire to abide because the Holy Spirit has done and is doing His work in us.
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Our willingness to abide is the fruit of God’s work in us, not the cause.
I see no where in scripture that "willingness to abide" is a fruit of the spirit. Yet, I DO see that if we abide, we will produce fruit. God does NOT make us willing to abide -- such a statement is contradictory. How can we be willing if we are made to do it? That you say it is "OUR" willingness, is the only truth to that statement.
Because abiding in Christ is obeying His commandment to love it is definitely a fruit. God commands us to love God with all of our being and love others as ourselves. This is the essence of abiding in Christ and is obviously fruit of the Spirit. This is why I say that abiding is not the cause of God’s work in us, but ultimately is the fruit of God’s work in us.
Being made willing is not making us do something. God has graciously given genuine believers a sight of the beauty of Christ Jesus and a relish for Him. This is not forcing, but giving sight to see and thus a desire to abide in this wonderful love of God.
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I boast in the Lord, not in my abiding.
Statements such as this are perplexing to me, as I can't see where they come from or the reason for them. Who claims to be boasting in their abiding?
It is perplexing to me that it is perplexing to you. I made this statement with the assumption that most would respond with an Amen. Many don’t “claim” to be boasting in their abiding, but put such emphasis upon it that it is hard to think otherwise.
Forgive me for thinking you were making judgmental assumptions ... oh, wait ... you were! And, you were also assuming you would get a pat on the back for that??? Me thinkest you assume too much. Need I remind you of what happens when you assume?
It is your misjudgment that I (since it was in response to me) or anyone suggested they boasted in their abiding. That we are commanded to abide in Christ does NOT make it boasting to say we must abide in Christ. Besides, if it were boasting, it would be boasting "in Christ", as it is Him we are abiding in.
If your ability (defined by you) to abide in Christ is the condition for ultimate salvation then there is room for boasting. I am not saying that a genuine believer is not commanded to abide. He most definitely is, and in the same way that the genuine believer is commanded to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength and to love his neighbor as himself. The point I want to make is that we do not have it within and of ourselves the desire to love God and others in the same we do not have it in and of ourselves to want to abide. If it were not for the abounding grace of God no person would abide in Christ, love Christ or love others and be ultimately saved. Because of this there is no room for boasting whatsoever.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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