|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 8:00:06 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7940
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
I see God's eternal power to keep us. If that is what you mean by Eternal Security, then yes, I see Eternal Security in these passages.
However I do not see any promise in those passages that he will keep us if we reject him. Nor that God will absolutely stop us from rejecting him if we foolishly decide to do so. Do you see anything like that in those two passages?
If we were accepted on the basis of the Lord Christ's righteousness, are then going to be rejected on the basis of our own righteousness?
Excellent point, dc!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 3:09:51 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yes. But you seem to deny that believers can even "live in sin".
Does sin grieve God? Yes. How can you consider a sinning believer not to be grieving God? Eph 4:30.
How can you consider a sinning believer not to be quenching the Spirit? 1 Thess 5:19.
FG,
The ability to "live in sin" is in all of us. But the grace of God is stronger than our ability to live in sin. I do not deny that we can sin or what you suggest as "backsliding" it is a reality even to myself.
The command to abide was given to us but the power and ability to abide is with the Lord. We slide into sin and sometimes for protracted time. However, it is not the Lord's intention that the believer be permanently remaining into sin because he is His, because the believer abides with Christ. We may be commanded to act in a way that is becoming a child of God but our preservation is not through out power, but through the power of God.
The Lord likens us also as to children that are being chastized. He whom He loves He disciplines. Again, there is the Great Shepherd not being shy to use the staff of discipline. That mean the Lord still abides with us even in our darkest hours. His presence do not leave us. His protection is never lifted. His discipline shows us His love, care and abiding presence.
See you may think that we can "leave" God, but the fact is He does not leave us, ergo, our abiding is not up to our ability to stay. It is in the Lord's fullfillment of a promise that He will "never" leave us nor forsake us. Our abiding in Christ is therefore irrevocably permanent.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 3:10:54 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
The command does not have any effect on one's salvation. That is eternally secure. Just as a rebellious child doesn't severe the DNA relationship with his parents, a rebellious child of God doesn't lose his spiritual "DNA".
FG,
My thoughts exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 3:16:46 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
btw, all of our hearts are "fleshly", so what is your point here? Jesus noted that some will believe for a while and then fall away. Yet, in the previous verse, He equated believing with being saved, so even those who quit believing are saved eternally. I know that greatly bothers those who do not understand grace.
Freegrace,
I see that you've mistaken what "flesh" means. A heart of flesh does not mean a heart that pursues fleshly things. It is a heart opposed to a heart of stone which was refered to in scriptures. A heart of stone is a heart that does not have the ability to obey God. A heart of flesh is a living heart that has the ability to obey God.
Actually, I was using the term as Paul used it on the Corinthian believers in 1 Cor 3:3. 
FG,
I was not. Therefore, rebutting my use of the word "flesh" with your use of the word "flesh" was off tangent and nullifies your arguement. See Ezekiel 36:26; 2 Corinthians 3:3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 5:52:23 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7940
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
The Lord likens us also as to children that are being chastized. He whom He loves He disciplines. Again, there is the Great Shepherd not being shy to use the staff of discipline. That mean the Lord still abides with us even in our darkest hours. His presence do not leave us. His protection is never lifted. His discipline shows us His love, care and abiding presence.
yes, I fully agree.
quote:
See you may think that we can "leave" God, but the fact is He does not leave us, ergo, our abiding is not up to our ability to stay. It is in the Lord's fullfillment of a promise that He will "never" leave us nor forsake us. Our abiding in Christ is therefore irrevocably permanent.
I fully agree that God never leaves us. That's why once saved, always saved. However, there are many verses that actually say that we can "abandon", "fall away", "shipwreck" and "deny" our faith. The context of these verses cannot conclude that unbelievers are being referred to.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 5:54:24 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7940
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
btw, all of our hearts are "fleshly", so what is your point here? Jesus noted that some will believe for a while and then fall away. Yet, in the previous verse, He equated believing with being saved, so even those who quit believing are saved eternally. I know that greatly bothers those who do not understand grace.
Freegrace,
I see that you've mistaken what "flesh" means. A heart of flesh does not mean a heart that pursues fleshly things. It is a heart opposed to a heart of stone which was refered to in scriptures. A heart of stone is a heart that does not have the ability to obey God. A heart of flesh is a living heart that has the ability to obey God.
Actually, I was using the term as Paul used it on the Corinthian believers in 1 Cor 3:3.
FG,
I was not. Therefore, rebutting my use of the word "flesh" with your use of the word "flesh" was off tangent and nullifies your arguement. See Ezekiel 36:26; 2 Corinthians 3:3
I understand your point. However, my point is that even believers' hearts can be carnal (fleshly).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:31:27 PM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
I fully agree that God never leaves us. That's why once saved, always saved. However, there are many verses that actually say that we can "abandon", "fall away", "shipwreck" and "deny" our faith. The context of these verses cannot conclude that unbelievers are being referred to.
FG,
Yes there are warnings for all believers. But by the grace of God we all arrive at the Lord's safe harbor. Those who are truly get sunk out there are those who truly never was his.
The warnings are extra motivation for us to cling to the Lord all the more and not rely on our own strength. One of God's means of grace.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:54:01 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7940
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
I fully agree that God never leaves us. That's why once saved, always saved. However, there are many verses that actually say that we can "abandon", "fall away", "shipwreck" and "deny" our faith. The context of these verses cannot conclude that unbelievers are being referred to.
FG,
Yes there are warnings for all believers. But by the grace of God we all arrive at the Lord's safe harbor. Those who are truly get sunk out there are those who truly never was his.
The warnings are extra motivation for us to cling to the Lord all the more and not rely on our own strength. One of God's means of grace.
From your posts, I take it that you believe in eternal security. If so, why do you think these warnings are "extra motivation" to cling to the Lord.
What do you think the warnings speak about? Arminians think they speak of loss of salvation. What think you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 11:58:01 PM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
I do not think it hurts believers for the Lord to show them what happens to those who never listened. As I said the Lord gives us means of grace through warnings as well as through encouragements.
Besides it also should motivate pretenders to examine themselves and believe instead of fooling themselves.
It also gives no excuse to those who will fall by the wayside.
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 4:41:23 AM
|
|
|
Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
And if you want to call that aspect of the teaching "Eternal Security", that is fine with me. I agree with you that this passage also teaches Eternal Security, if you define it that way.
Good, I think :)
Well, we’re in basic agreement most of the way. Isn’t that great?
There is just one small area of disagreement.
quote:
quote:
However this passage does not say anything on the question of whether any particular sheep can stop listening, or run away, or anything like this (i.e. the usual point of issue in the "Eternal Security debate").
But it does, quite clearly speak to that issue in the following verses:
John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
So you think these verses say it is absolutely impossible for a sheep to stop listening or to run away, so that he no longer counts as one of Jesus’s sheep. And I do not think these verses speak to that topic.
But really, we are in agreement that if a sheep does turn away and rebel he will not be eternally saved. If I understand you correctly, you will explain this by saying that it just proves that he wasn’t really a sheep. And that’s fine with me; I don’t have any strong views on what the explanation should be.
So it seems that you and I are very close on this issue, the difference being more theoretical than practical. I think of FreeGrace’s position as substantially different, since it would say that a totally rebellious sheep would still be saved. Interesting, since you and FreeGrace are supposed to be on the same side in this “Eternal Security Debate”, or whatever you call it.
quote:
quote:
Even with the best of shepherds, a sheep can still decide to rebel or run away. That question is totally irrelevant to the context of the passage, and there is no reason to think Jesus had this issue in mind as he was speaking. (Or that John had it in mind when he was writing it down.)
Frankly, it is hard to understand your statements here in light of verses 28-29. Never perish means precisely what it says. And, why would you think that "no man" is able to "pluck" them out of the Father's hand means that some men can?
This discussion about words has been wrung out in several posts around #3421, so it might not be useful to keep going at this way for now. I'll just restate that I do not think that "being plucked" is the same as "voluntarily walk away" or "willfully rebel". And I'm sure you have your ready response. And so on.
But let me try a different tack. When Jesus spoke those words back in 30 A.D. or so, his audience consisted of the religious leaders, his disciples, and others in the crowd which almost certainly included some believers, and others in process of becoming believers. So, what did his audience think of his message?
Now I'm not so concerned about the religious leaders here, since they were getting angry and violent and were not thinking very clearly. But they did see that the crowds were turning to Jesus, and they didn’t like it. And all this talk about the Good Shepherd didn't sit very well with them either, since the obviously corollary was that they were Bad Shepherds. They knew about Ezekiel 34.
But what about the sheep? The sheep, of course, are the crowds, those looking to the leaders (shepherds) for guidance. This terminology is all over the OT, and that is the natural way of reading this passage. I don't think there can be any dispute about this. So, when Jesus talks about "my sheep", the obvious reference is to those who are listening to him.
So, when Jesus spoke John 10:27-29, what did these sheep think he was saying? "I give them eternal life, they will never perish, no one will snatch them out of my hand." What did the sheep, back in AD 30, think this meant?
Well, if you were following Jesus for awhile, you saw that some did turn back (e.g. John 6:66). And, of course, new people joined them every day. What would you make of all this?
Now, if it were me back there, I would think I would want to stay with my Master, to follow him every day. I would want Eternal Life, just as he promised. And yes, there is a lot of comfort and help to be had. He knows me (personally), and I am getting to know him. I trust that He will keep me safe from all harm.
I don't know that I would philosophize about whether is was "logically possible" or "theologically possible" to leave my Master. After all, I'm just a sheep. I know that he will give me Eternal Life, and that he will protect me from all the "wolves" out there who are trying to take me away. If I'm stupid enough to run away . . . Well, I know I'd better not do that.
So, what do you think the sheep thought about when Jesus spoke those words? Is it conceivable they thought about the idea that they were among the "elect", and thereby had their salvation somehow "locked in"? Or others worried about whether they were truly among the "elect"? Is that what they heard Jesus say? What do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 5:17:11 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7940
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
I do not think it hurts believers for the Lord to show them what happens to those who never listened.
I presume you are referring to unbelievers. Why would you compare apples and oranges. Or better yet, sheep and goats, or wheat and tares. 
quote:
As I said the Lord gives us means of grace through warnings as well as through encouragements.
This does not explain why the warnings at all.
quote:
Besides it also should motivate pretenders to examine themselves and believe instead of fooling themselves.
2 Cor 13:5 isn't speaking to pretenders, in spite of all the people who think so. Paul is challenging the Corinthian believers to examine themselves to ensure that they are living their lives within the guidelines of the Christian faith. I know you will probably reject that. But, if Paul thought any in that church weren't believers, why didn't he come right out and clearly state such? 2 Cor 13:5 doesn't do that.
I know the reformed have a doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, which says that true believers will not ever fall away from the faith. iow, they will always persevere in the faith.
Well, Paul clearly contradicts that doctrine. He never taught that. In fact, he claimed just the opposite of that.
In his 2 epistles to Timothy, Paul repeatedly tells of those who have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim 1:19), abandoned their faith (4:1), denied the faith (5:8), even saying such a one is "worse than an unbeliever", their sensual desires have overcome their dedication to Christ (5:11), turned away to follow Satan (5:15), wandered from the faith (6:10, 21, 2 Tim 2:18) destroyed the faith of some 2 Tim 2:18), turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (4:4), and good old Demas, who loved this world and deserted Paul 4:10).
Also, in 2 tim 2:19 Paul exhorts all believers that "everyone who confesses the Name of the Lord MUST TURN AWAY from wickedness".
Notice that he didn't say that believers will do so, but that they MUST do so.
quote:
It also gives no excuse to those who will fall by the wayside.
Correct, there is no excuse. But, what does that mean to you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 12:04:34 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
FG,
quote:
I presume you are referring to unbelievers. Why would you compare apples and oranges. Or better yet, sheep and goats, or wheat and tares.
Because believers and unbelievers are given the same amount of information, same warnings, same offers, etc.
quote:
This does not explain why the warnings at all. Warnings have their place in our Christian lives. It makes us fear the Lord because the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And if we are already wise we would learn how to properly revere Him. It also will make us aware of the consequences of sins so that we can be work hard in evangelizing and helping fallen brethren. Besides it makes you appreciate what God is saving you from.
quote:
2 Cor 13:5 isn't speaking to pretenders, in spite of all the people who think so. Paul is challenging the Corinthian believers to examine themselves to ensure that they are living their lives within the guidelines of the Christian faith. I know you will probably reject that. But, if Paul thought any in that church weren't believers, why didn't he come right out and clearly state such? 2 Cor 13:5 doesn't do that. "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves." awfully sounds like a statement for both genuine and counterfit Christians. You see Paul while trying to warn them of apostasy was also careful and encouraging to every member of the church because he himself is not omniscient. So if anybody who is not a true believer whose ears his words fall into, they should be themselves be afraid and believe.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 2:50:05 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
So you think these verses say it is absolutely impossible for a sheep to stop listening or to run away, so that he no longer counts as one of Jesus’s sheep. And I do not think these verses speak to that topic. Yes, I do think this is very clearly stating that nothing can change a sheep into a goat - because the Father has given these to Christ.
quote:
But really, we are in agreement that if a sheep does turn away and rebel he will not be eternally saved. If I understand you correctly, you will explain this by saying that it just proves that he wasn’t really a sheep. And that’s fine with me; I don’t have any strong views on what the explanation should be. Absolutely, if a "supposed" sheep falls permanently away, he simply was never a sheep. Even in the parable of the wheat and tares we see in the churches wheat/sheep and tares/goats growing side by side until the last day.
We see also in Mat 11:27 that we cannot even "know" Jesus but that the Father reveals Him to us. Christ says the same to the Apostles in Mat 16:17.
quote:
I think of FreeGrace’s position as substantially different, since it would say that a totally rebellious sheep would still be saved. Interesting, since you and FreeGrace are supposed to be on the same side in this “Eternal Security Debate”, or whatever you call it.
Yes, but for very different reasons. It is a gulf too wide to forge. He doesn't see that Scripture teaches different types of faith, faith other than a saving one; and therefore he applies "eternal life" to any who supposedly believes. Even going so far as to teach that a man can live and die an Atheist but remain "saved" if he had ever once professed "belief".
It's inconsistent for the freewill theology since apparently, in this instance God refuses to allow the freewill of the Atheist. But, I guess this particular sovereignty of God doesn't seem quite so threating.
quote:
So, when Jesus spoke John 10:27-29, what did these sheep think he was saying? "I give them eternal life, they will never perish, no one will snatch them out of my hand." What did the sheep, back in AD 30, think this meant? I know of one "sheep" who believed she and others were "eternally saved" from hearing the preaching of Jesus. When Lazarus lay in the tomb, Jesus told Martha that her brother would rise again. And she answered: "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
quote:
Well, if you were following Jesus for awhile, you saw that some did turn back (e.g. John 6:66). And, of course, new people joined them every day. What would you make of all this?
We're told some came for the miracles, for the healings, some had very hardened hearts(Mat 11:23-24). Jesus knew the heart of each one who heard Him preach. He knew "from the beginning" those in John 6 who didn't believe. Those who didn't believe were never given to Him by the Father, their eyes remained blinded.
Even in John 6:39-40 we see Jesus saying the same as in John 10.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
It is from these verses, and others like them, that the believers of Jesus' day learned to be secure in their eternal life with Christ.
< Message edited by kelman -- 7/9/2008 3:02:33 AM >
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:25:07 AM
|
|
|
Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
|
Note: this is a reply to the later parts of post #3490. kelman's last post wasn't available when I started.
quote:
quote:
(Re John 10) Tychicus: Now, perhaps your view is that the Apostles were not "consciously intending" to teach Eternal Security, and weren't concerned how clearly it was expressed.
kelman: IF John was not 'consciously intending' to teach eternal security, he, nonetheless, did an excellent job of it. Again, his remarks were 'transparent and without ambiguity'.
quote:
Tychicus: They just let God guide their hand, and saw that God was teaching Eternal Security in a round-about way in various verses.
kelman: Well, if God intended to guide their hand, they wouldn't have much choice, now would they? Perhaps, in order to find truth God made it necessary to consult all of Scripture to come to it? Although, even without the rest, John would be more than enough for me to know God was teaching eternal security.
Hi kelman,
Well, for all you have said, it still remains that Eternal Security is not being taught in context in John 10. There are just those scattered verses that you understand to be 'transparent and without ambiguity'. And, even then, however 'transparent' they may be, they never address the issue of a believer rebelling or turning away (as you will find, for example in 1 Cor 10 and Hebrews 3).
And you are saying that the reason Eternal Security is not being taught more directly in context could be that God wanted to "make it necessary to consult all of Scripture to come to [the truth of this teaching]." In other words, God obscured things just a little, in order to make us study harder.
For, in fact, God could have inspired John to teach this doctrine more directly. In fact, John (or one of the other apostles) could have explained it, well, kind of like you would explain it to a Sunday School class. Really, in 5 or 6 verses he could do a pretty bang up job! (including, of course, something on the topic of "what if a believer rebels and turns away"). In fact, this topic of the rebelling believer does come up in scripture (e.g. 1 Cor 10), but for some reason the apostles never think to teach Eternal Security in those passages (or God doesn't allow them to write it, to make sure the readers have to study harder to find this doctrine!)
And even though in your view John 'did an excellent job of [teaching Eternal Security]', in fact this teaching never made it to the early church. I'll accept your view that you find some traces in the later writings of Augustine, although it never caught on very well in the Roman church, nor anywhere until Calvin in the 16th century. But no matter, that is still 400 years and tens of thousands of pages of documents with nary a mention of Eternal Security.
quote:
(Re John 10:27) In any event, I'm glad we can agree that when Christ "gives" there is no force involved.
It's good to agree on things. Here's another interesting word: gate (John 10:1). There are two fundamentally different uses for a gate: 1) to keep the bad guys out; 2) to lock the citizens in (kind of like the Berlin wall). So, how is the word "gate" being used in John 10?
< Message edited by Tychicus -- 7/9/2008 4:43:45 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 9:54:30 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7940
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
FG,
quote:
I presume you are referring to unbelievers. Why would you compare apples and oranges. Or better yet, sheep and goats, or wheat and tares.
Because believers and unbelievers are given the same amount of information, same warnings, same offers, etc.
That doesn't explain anything. btw, what do you mean by "same offers"? Since believers already have eternal life, they aren't being offered eternal life, which is only offered to unbelievers. I suggest you re-think your pov.
quote:
quote:
This does not explain why the warnings at all.
Warnings have their place in our Christian lives. It makes us fear the Lord because the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And if we are already wise we would learn how to properly revere Him. It also will make us aware of the consequences of sins so that we can be work hard in evangelizing and helping fallen brethren. Besides it makes you appreciate what God is saving you from.
All that is true, but you are missing something. Please read Heb 12, regarding pretty strong discipline. That is what the warning are about. No different than any parent warning their kids of the consequences of certain behaviors.
quote:
quote:
2 Cor 13:5 isn't speaking to pretenders, in spite of all the people who think so. Paul is challenging the Corinthian believers to examine themselves to ensure that they are living their lives within the guidelines of the Christian faith. I know you will probably reject that. But, if Paul thought any in that church weren't believers, why didn't he come right out and clearly state such? 2 Cor 13:5 doesn't do that. "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves." awfully sounds like a statement for both genuine and counterfit Christians. You see Paul while trying to warn them of apostasy was also careful and encouraging to every member of the church because he himself is not omniscient. So if anybody who is not a true believer whose ears his words fall into, they should be themselves be afraid and believe.
Paul is warning his audience of believers to ensure thay are living their lives within the Christian faith, not outside of it.
Although, reformed theology denies that a true believer can fall away from the faith. That just isn't true. There are many passages which plainly states that fact, yet the reformed simple explain them all away by saying those weren't true believers. But they do so without any contexual support for their claims.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 5:20:04 AM
|
|
|
Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
quote:
(John 10:28-29)
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Tychicus: So you think these verses say it is absolutely impossible for a sheep to stop listening or to run away, so that he no longer counts as one of Jesus’s sheep. And I do not think these verses speak to that topic.
kelman: Yes, I do think this is very clearly stating that nothing can change a sheep into a goat - because the Father has given these to Christ.
Yes, sheep do not turn into goats. But sheep do rebel and/or run away.
quote:
We see also in Mat 11:27 that we cannot even "know" Jesus but that the Father reveals Him to us. Christ says the same to the Apostles in Mat 16:17.
As you might expect, I don't see those verses saying that. Now 11:27 does say that no one knows the Father except "anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." It is interesting to compare this with John 14:8-9. No matter, Christ will reveal the Father to whom he wishes, and for whatever reason he wishes.
quote:
Even in John 6:39-40 we see Jesus saying the same as in John 10.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Here in 6:40 we see that Christ will give anyone everlasting life for the reason that they "believe in Him".
Well, there are lots of verses in John 6, with "calling" and "drawing", and so on, and a full discussion of these verses belongs in another forum. I do not want to pretend I am saying anything substantial in these few comments.
But I would encourage you to keep the context in mind. Christ is continually showing that what he is doing is based on what the Father wants. His teaching is consistent with the Father's teaching. The ones who believe in him are the ones the Father is giving to him. It is the Father's will for people follow Jesus, not the "religious leaders".
Nothing in here implies that it is the Father's will that some are not chosen because of some arbitrary decree of God. Yes, it does say that there are some that "God chooses"; perhaps it is those whom God sees are ready to believe. I am not saying there is any definite teaching here on why "God chooses".
But it may be good to look at the Matt 11 passage again, a few verses up at 11:25-26: "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will." This is a great example of one of God's reasons for deciding to "reveal things" to some men and not to others.
Anyway, we are getting far removed from Eternal Security . . .
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 12:17:28 PM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
That doesn't explain anything. btw, what do you mean by "same offers"? Since believers already have eternal life, they aren't being offered eternal life, which is only offered to unbelievers. I suggest you re-think your pov.
FG,
I do not need to rethink anything. Same offers means that every action will lead to certain results. Do evil, bad things can befall you. Christians would call it discipline and unbelievers will call it punishments. Christians will call them rewards, unbelievers will call them wage.
When God gives us warnings both believers and unbelievers can fall on the same temporal results of their actions.
The difference is grace from God. The free gift of eternal life. Not earned by your actions but by the righteousness of the Lord.
Your eternal security is not ripped off of you because of your actions because God still preserves you and will direct your path to holiness. Where unbelievers will not have the grace of God and continue to perdition.
Same offers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 12:34:35 PM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Although, reformed theology denies that a true believer can fall away from the faith. That just isn't true. There are many passages which plainly states that fact, yet the reformed simple explain them all away by saying those weren't true believers. But they do so without any contexual support for their claims.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out of us, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Read the whole 1 John. It simply is telling us that he who leaves, abides in sin, hates his brother has never had the grace of God in the first place. I think the reformed simply got this right.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 1:52:09 AM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
Although, reformed theology denies that a true believer can fall away from the faith. That just isn't true. There are many passages which plainly states that fact, yet the reformed simple explain them all away by saying those weren't true believers. But they do so without any contexual support for their claims.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out of us, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Read the whole 1 John. It simply is telling us that he who leaves, abides in sin, hates his brother has never had the grace of God in the first place. I think the reformed simply got this right.
This passage in 1 John is referring to a specific group of people and does not apply to all situations and people.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 3:44:17 AM
|
|
|
Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
quote:
doublecross: It is interesting to notice that what is being debated is whether one is commanded or not and using it to point to the possibility of a son of God falling into eternal punishment. Has he not received a new heart from God. Does this mean that the heart of flesh can be turned to a heart of stone again by the very actions of the professing person?
Tychicus: If we receive a new heart from God, does that mean we cannot sin? And if we do sin, what happens to that new heart? What does it mean in Heb 3:7-19, esp 3:12?
quote:
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
doublecross: Nothing happens to the new heart. The quote at the bottom of your post is a warning to believers that there might be wolves among them.
Ok, I'll expand the Hebrews citation:quote:
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today", that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
So, this warning is not for you? It's just for the other guy who sits across the pew?
On what basis do you think all the promises of God apply to you, but the warnings are all to somebody else? Do you think God will be impressed by this kind of logic on judgment day?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 3:57:29 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
And you are saying that the reason Eternal Security is not being taught more directly in context could be that God wanted to "make it necessary to consult all of Scripture to come to [the truth of this teaching]." In other words, God obscured things just a little, in order to make us study harder. Now you know I believe God taught eternal security clearly enough in various passages; but, He also included much language that would "appear" to differ. I really do think God obscured quite a bit in Scripture. This is apparent by all the various beliefs, although, much of the differences is simply due to hard-headedness or the desire to maintain power and authority.
Catholics insists the references to Christ's body and blood are literal. Protestants, otoh, see the metaphorical language Christ employed in John 6 and elsewhere. Catholics and some Protestants see salvation by some type of work they must do, or that their sins are washed away in water baptism. On and on it goes, so yes, I think God obscures some truths so that we will study harder.
And who are those who will be interested in studying harder to come to truth?....not those so tightly locked and invested in particular denominational doctrines.
quote:
For, in fact, God could have inspired John to teach this doctrine more directly. In fact, John (or one of the other apostles) could have explained it, well, kind of like you would explain it to a Sunday School class. Really, in 5 or 6 verses he could do a pretty bang up job! (including, of course, something on the topic of "what if a believer rebels and turns away"). In fact, this topic of the rebelling believer does come up in scripture (e.g. 1 Cor 10), but for some reason the apostles never think to teach Eternal Security in those passages (or God doesn't allow them to write it, to make sure the readers have to study harder to find this doctrine!)
For that matter, God could have written Scripture specifically by telling us, for example : "now, don't get the wrong impression that your sins will be washed away in water baptism, it is simply a command I give to identify yourself as a Christian, similar to circumcision of the OT."
He could have been that specific; but, instead He makes us search out every single solitary reference to baptism, OT circumcision, etc.
quote:
And even though in your view John 'did an excellent job of [teaching Eternal Security]', in fact this teaching never made it to the early church. I'll accept your view that you find some traces in the later writings of Augustine, although it never caught on very well in the Roman church, nor anywhere until Calvin in the 16th century. But no matter, that is still 400 years and tens of thousands of pages of documents with nary a mention of Eternal Security.
I don't look at it as a negative that it didn't "catch on" in RC. Afterall, just look at some of what did catch on.
quote:
It's good to agree on things. Here's another interesting word: gate (John 10:1). There are two fundamentally different uses for a gate: 1) to keep the bad guys out; 2) to lock the citizens in (kind of like the Berlin wall). So, how is the word "gate" being used in John 10?
The Greek word is translated door 37 times and gate twice. The various uses in Scripture for door are: used to enclose a room or tomb; something close at hand(at the very door); opportunity; the entrance to a room or sheepfold or eternal life(Christ as The Door); and, of course prison doors.
So, in John 6 the door spoken of is Christ. Only through this Door may one come safely into the sheepfold others that come another way are thieves and robbers, iow, unsaved(vs 1,9). And, obviously it is the responsibility of the Shepherd to safely keep the sheep in the sheepfold; and, in fact, the Shepherd gave His life to do so(vs 11).
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 4:15:16 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
quote:
quote:
Tychicus: So you think these verses say it is absolutely impossible for a sheep to stop listening or to run away, so that he no longer counts as one of Jesus’s sheep. And I do not think these verses speak to that topic.
kelman: Yes, I do think this is very clearly stating that nothing can change a sheep into a goat - because the Father has given these to Christ.
Yes, sheep do not turn into goats. But sheep do rebel and/or run away. Well, I don't know...Christ is a pretty "solid" Door. Besides, you know what He says about leaving the 99 to find the 1 who has strayed.
quote:
quote:
We see also in Mat 11:27 that we cannot even "know" Jesus but that the Father reveals Him to us. Christ says the same to the Apostles in Mat 16:17. As you might expect, I don't see those verses saying that. Now 11:27 does say that no one knows the Father except "anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." It is interesting to compare this with John 14:8-9. No matter, Christ will reveal the Father to whom he wishes, and for whatever reason he wishes.
You are correct. It is Christ revealing the Father to those He chooses to - not the other way around. A magnificent truth coupled with 2Cor 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." and John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
And then we see in John 5:23 that man does not honor the Father unless he honors Christ "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
Still, we know that the Father reveals the truth of who Christ is to us. We see this in Mat 16:17 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
And the Holy Spirit reveals God to us 1Cor 2:10,13,14 "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
quote:
quote:
Even in John 6:39-40 we see Jesus saying the same as in John 10.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Here in 6:40 we see that Christ will give anyone everlasting life for the reason that they "believe in Him". I must disagree with you here. We are not given eternal life because we believe. Rather, it is the evidence, along with repentance, that we have been given to Christ - we have become saved.
quote:
Nothing in here implies that it is the Father's will that some are not chosen because of some arbitrary decree of God. Because we do not know all the reasons for God "choosing", there is no reason to propose they are arbitrary - if by that you mean capricious or unreasonable.
quote:
Yes, it does say that there are some that "God chooses"; perhaps it is those whom God sees are ready to believe. Scripture does indeed say "God chooses" and, there is no hint that He does so because some are "ready to believe".
quote:
I am not saying there is any definite teaching here on why "God chooses". All God tells us of why He chooses is His desire to display His glory(Rom 9). We also see in Heb 11:16 God's purpose in election is to demonstrate mercy.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
