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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:52:59 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 922
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
God gives the gift of eternal life to those for whom He shed His blood. This is a gift that cannot be rescinded. John 5:24 tells us that we do not come into condemnation and that we pass from death to life. By the very nature of that which is "eternal", it must be forever and forever.
To say that we can lose this gift is to treat eternal life as a mere philosophical term that has no real substance. Rather, in the life of a true believer it is very substanctive and real. We have been resurrected from being spiritually dead into eternal life.
We too are risen with Christ, even now.
Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
You say: "This is a gift that cannot be rescinded."
Right… God’s not going to take away (rescind) the offer that was made by Christ’s sacrifice.
quote:
John 5:24 tells us that we do not come into condemnation and that we pass from death to life. By the very nature of that which is "eternal", it must be forever and forever.
John 5:24 as written in the NASB reads the following:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It says heareth AND believeth. Two separate things… all will hear (what is told to them), but will all believe (listen)? How does one show belief or act when they believe? Other passages of scripture note that those who believe will obey (listen and heed), we will know them by their fruit and so on and so forth.
You also overlooked that the very next verse (John 5:25) states "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”
It says those that hear will live. John 6:60 is listed as a cross reference to “who hear”. It says: “Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
John 8:43 is also listed and it says: "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.”
8:47 is also listed: “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
And 9:27: “He answered them, "I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?"
All these passages point to the fact that not everyone will hear, that is understand, listen and obey.
I am not the first one to say that we can lose the gift of salvation. I read it in the bible. If you suppose that you can accept a free gift of salvation without giving anything up for it, then I would suppose you are incorrect. The offer is freely given, but you'll have to do what you're supposed to. If it were free Jesus would not have wasted so much time telling how to live, how to recognize true believers; he wouldn’t have wasted time telling people to love. He would have just said, I’ve come to die so that you who believe the Father sent Me can continue on with your party down here not changing a thing. It is not free, it is freely available to those who are willing to do what they are supposed to as best they can.
quote:
I never could understand how sins can be differentiated like this "willful" and what?...."unwillful"? No body has ever forced my "will" to commit a sin....my will manages to do that very well all on its own.
That is because you are looking for the wrong opposite. The opposite of willful disobedience is willful obedience.
quote:
Like Peter on the water?
External evidences of continuous, ongoing faith is not an indicator of salvation.
At times we are Spirit-filled, other times we quench the Spirit.
Sounds like you view "work out your salvation" in an overbalanced way.
As for Romans 6, I suggest you continue on to Romans 7, esp. 14-25.
That is why we are told to be ever diligent in exercising our faith. The moment we are not diligent (as Peter was the moment he took his eyes off Jesus) we will fall into sin. We are to strive to be ever diligent! Not to give up and easily succumb to sin because we are inherently flawed in nature. What was it Jesus said to Peter when he fell? Mat. 14:31 “Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
In the end did we try to live the life God wanted us to? Or did we concede defeat and not even attempt it?
Romans 7:14-25:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
When left to our own devices we will sin because we are slaves to sin. Only the gift of the Holy Spirit given to us by Jesus can prevent sin. As the end of your own passage it states, “Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”. IOW, how can I possibly stop doing things I don’t want to do and instead do that which I know is righteous? Thank God that he sent Jesus and through Him we may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit!
The moment we take our eyes off the prize (or stop living in Spirit), we will fall. But did we really try to do what we were told by Jesus to do? Did we try to live blameless by letting the Spirit work in us? Did we try to do the work God set for us to do? When we did hurt another, did we go to them and beg forgiveness like Jesus said we should? Or instead of all this, did we continuously say “I know this isn’t right but I’m going to do it anyway”? Did we make a practice of living for our own selfish desires in OUR wicked ways? Or did we make it a practice to strive to diligently live in Spirit?
It is also written in Mat. 24:12-13:
"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
The love that grows cold refers to the love that causes us to want to do good things as we are enabled to do by the Spirit. IOW people will stop wanting and seeking to live right. Those who do not stop seeking to live and do right will be saved.
If you give up the race before you finish how are you still seeking to live and do right?
Paul says in I Cor 15:9-10:
“For I am the least of all the apostles. In fact, I’m not even worthy to be called an apostle after the way I persecuted God’s church.
But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor on me—and not without results. For I have worked harder than any of the other apostles; yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace.”
Paul acknowledged what he was, and what he did, before the gift of Jesus made him a new person. Paul didn’t feel worthy of what he received because of what he did in the past, but he says that because he allowed God (the Holy Spirit) to work in him he became what he was (at the time of the writing).
The gift of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus brought to mankind, that is the grace and unmerited favor that we have been offered. To be able to have the Spirit live and work through us as Jesus did every moment of his life. In order to receive that Spirit we must believe in Jesus, who He was, what He did and what He said we could do by living in the Spirit and then doing what it is He said we should do to the BEST of our ability diligently. Not later when you feel like it, but today – right now every moment it is possible.
quote:
So Peter was not saved, not once but three times?
Every time we sin we deny Christ, bro.
Are you trying not to deny Christ to the full capacity of your ability? Are you REALLY? If you are saying, “I know I shouldn’t do, say or think this but I’m going to anyway”; then you are not running your race to the best of your ability. You are telling the Spirit I’m not giving this to you – its mine and I’m keeping it because it pleases me. You can’t have this part of me.
quote:
We possess the Spirit in flawed vessels.
2Cor 4:7
2 Cor. 4:7:
“The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away.”
I fail to see how you tie this verse to the statement you made before it.
However, lets look at this verse since you posted it. “The old way with laws etched in stone led to death” Yep sure did, without the Holy Spirit we had no hope of surviving. However with Jesus we received the Holy Spirit and an Advocate with the Father IF we fall short. IF we fall while earnestly trying; not so that we could fall intentionally to our own selfish desires that we refuse to give up.
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/3/2008 1:01:17 PM >
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 9:50:07 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
The term is confusing kelman, is it not ..."willful disobedience" ?
What would non-willful disobedience be I wonder ?
Some appear to launch a camouflage tactic by masking their sin.
Ah, man and his feeble attempts to cover the feces of sin !
We are resposible for ALL our sin...ALL our sin is willful !
Confess it---thank God for His infinite mercy...don't pretend it ain't sin !
I never could understand how sins can be differentiated like this "willful" and what?...."unwillful"? No body has ever forced my "will" to commit a sin....my will manages to do that very well all on its own.
Of course there's our favorite triumvirate-
...cardinal, venial, and mortal...LOL
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 9:57:10 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
Romans 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
God's calling and gifts are irrevocable... He's not going to stop offering them to man. That doesn't mean that we're all going to choose to be saved and it doesn't mean we can't walk away.
Can't re-write definitions to bolster your opinion...LOL
Main Entry: ir·rev·o·ca·ble
Pronunciation: \i-ˈre-və-kə-bəl, ˌi(r)- sometimes ˌir-(r)ə-ˈvô-kə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin irrevocabilis, from in- + revocabilis revocable
Date: 14th century
: not possible to revoke
Main Entry: 1re·voke Pronunciation: \ri-ˈvôk\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·voked; re·vok·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French revocer, revoquer, from Latin revocare, from re- + vocare to call, from voc-, vox voice — more at voice
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to annul by recalling or taking back : rescind <revoke a will>
2 : to bring or call back
intransitive verb
: to fail to follow suit when able in a card game in violation of the rules
Let's use Romans 1:18-25, 28-32; 3:9-10 as an example.
Dude,
You lost me here !!!!
God gives us stuff...He doesn't take it back !!!
Eternal life is a gift given by God...FOREVER !
God gives us salvation AND keeps us to the end !
1 Peter 1:3-5 (King James Version)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 10:19:30 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Freegrace:
Belief is evidenced by actions. Actions are proof we believe.
It's not that cut and dried. Lack of actions does NOT mean lack of faith.
Abundance of actions means...I might be a philanthropist.
Yeah, I might be Bill Gates...He's a BIG Christian, right ?
Belief/faith is knowing something or Someone.
Faith is not solidified by activity the ungodly do as well.
Don't confuse righteous living with worky obedience !
Christ in me is bearing fruit unto God. God's work.
If I am trying and striving to accomplish...that's works.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:29:29 PM
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disciplelife
Posts: 60
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
You lost me here !!!!
I figured it might be a lot for you to absorb at one time, just take your time to read the information in the post slower, have your Bible open to Romans, take notes if needed and don't hesitate to ask for help.
_____________________________
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 5:35:27 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
You say: "This is a gift that cannot be rescinded."
Right… God’s not going to take away (rescind) the offer that was made by Christ’s sacrifice. These gifts include the remission of sin - Christ does not rescind that. Another gift is eternal life, if that is rescinded it cannot be said to be eternal life.
quote:
quote:
John 5:24 tells us that we do not come into condemnation and that we pass from death to life. By the very nature of that which is "eternal", it must be forever and forever. John 5:24 as written in the NASB reads the following:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It says heareth AND believeth. Two separate things… all will hear (what is told to them), but will all believe (listen)? How does one show belief or act when they believe? Other passages of scripture note that those who believe will obey (listen and heed), we will know them by their fruit and so on and so forth. I'm not sure what your point could be since I haven't said anything about those who do not hear the Gospel with spiritual ears. Obviously, if we do not come into judgment and are passed from death to life - we have spiritually heard the Gospel. This is the point - by the very nature of that which is "eternal", it must be forever and forever.
quote:
You also overlooked that the very next verse (John 5:25) states "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”
It says those that hear will live. John 6:60 is listed as a cross reference to “who hear”. It says: “Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" What makes you think I "overlooked" it? What do you think these verses are proving?
quote:
All these passages point to the fact that not everyone will hear, that is understand, listen and obey. You're correct, but what's your point since I've never said otherwise?
quote:
I am not the first one to say that we can lose the gift of salvation. I read it in the bible. Who said you're the "first one" to say one can lose his salvation? But, you certainly don't get it from the Bible. And thus far, you've presented nothing which offers even the slightest evidence for your position.
quote:
If you suppose that you can accept a free gift of salvation without giving anything up for it, then I would suppose you are incorrect. Interesting...so do you give up something before or after salvation? I always thought we "gained" not lost something. When God bestows eternal life and the Holy Spirit indwells we don't get to "accept". By His grace our minds and hearts are renewed and we happily walk in His statutes.
quote:
The offer is freely given, but you'll have to do what you're supposed to. If it were free Jesus would not have wasted so much time telling how to live,... God clearly says differently than you do. God teaches that He has freely given us all things.
Mat 10:8 .....freely ye have received, freely give.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,....
Rom 5:16 ....but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:18 ....even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
quote:
He would have just said, I’ve come to die so that you who believe the Father sent Me can continue on with your party down here not changing a thing. Why set up such a strawman? It is not my position that a true believer doesn't become a new creature in Christ and, in fact, does lead a different life.
And though God designed perfectly serious warnings in Scripture. They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation.
quote:
It is not free, it is freely available to those who are willing to do what they are supposed to as best they can. Well, we've just proven from Scripture that this is incorrect.
quote:
It is also written in Mat. 24:12-13:
"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
The love that grows cold refers to the love that causes us to want to do good things as we are enabled to do by the Spirit. IOW people will stop wanting and seeking to live right. Those who do not stop seeking to live and do right will be saved. No, that's not what's being said in Mat 24. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing between believers and non-believers. Read further in Mat 24 and you will see the following:
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 5:39:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
The term is confusing kelman, is it not ..."willful disobedience" ?
What would non-willful disobedience be I wonder ?
Some appear to launch a camouflage tactic by masking their sin.
Ah, man and his feeble attempts to cover the feces of sin !
We are resposible for ALL our sin...ALL our sin is willful !
Confess it---thank God for His infinite mercy...don't pretend it ain't sin !
I never could understand how sins can be differentiated like this "willful" and what?...."unwillful"? No body has ever forced my "will" to commit a sin....my will manages to do that very well all on its own.
Of course there's our favorite triumvirate-
...cardinal, venial, and mortal...LOL
.... bad, badder, baddest....lol
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 7:52:25 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1188
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And though God designed perfectly serious warnings in Scripture. They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation.
I've never understood why, if everything about our salvation is an irrevokable gift from God, we would need to have "warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us." I mean, if we have nothing to do with our own salvation, it seems to me that there is nothing we can do to lose it, therefore the "God designed, perfectly serious warnings in Scripture" are totally superfluous and unnecessary.
Also, I'm wondering if the "eternal" in eternal life refers to the life itself and not to the length of time we possess it.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 8:57:01 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And though God designed perfectly serious warnings in Scripture. They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation.
I've never understood why, if everything about our salvation is an irrevokable gift from God, we would need to have "warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us."
Because man is ignorant...
Why does the yellow road sign have an arrow pointing right, when I can clearly see that the road is bearing to the right ? We are dummies !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 9:12:22 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
You say: "This is a gift that cannot be rescinded."
Right… God’s not going to take away (rescind) the offer that was made by Christ’s sacrifice. These gifts include the remission of sin - Christ does not rescind that. Another gift is eternal life, if that is rescinded it cannot be said to be eternal life.
Amen my dear brother !
Plus, we have to re-write other Bible definitions !
Predestination, election, chosen, foreordain, appointed.
I am not comfortable imposing this "WISDOM"...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 12:58:02 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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Ok we clearly and will always disagree about the mark. You have given me zero proof it is strictly spiritual. I believe it is both physical and spiritual.
There will be much more of this "hysteria" you talk about when they introduce this chip to the world. I don't believe you should take it. Buy hey, if you want to take the chance if it comes to that, then that is your decision, not for the point of many people saying otherwise.
quote:
Prove it please... I don't see anywhere in the bible where it says "cannot be removed". quote:
The term itself should be self-explanatory. The Lamb shed His blood only for those written in the Lamb's Book and therefore can never be removed. We do not become saved then unsaved, we do not go from sheep to goats. The Lord Jesus does not unshed His blood. God does not rescind His gift to us - salvation and eternal life.
And these names were written from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
ummm where do you get these names were written from the foundation of the world from this verse? "whose names are NOT written in the book of the life of the lamb from the foundation of the world".
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Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
This doesn't support your argument, it supports mine. If you are "christian" and your practice the lawlessness described above... It more so proves your name was never written in the book of life if you continue to commit the habitual sin noted above.
quote:
All mankind has their name written in the Book of Life; and as they die unsaved, their names are blotted out. One by one...blotted out so that by the end of time, both “books” will have the same names in them. The Lamb’s Book contained all those named to be saved from before the foundation of the world. The Book of Life would have had blotted out all names of those who never became saved. There will, in effect, be "one" book left.
This is your opinion or theory again. There is not two books.
quote:
But we have instances of either never being written in it or having names blotted out. It is only the Lamb's Book that some names have never been written and they are never said to be blotted out. In the Book of Life, yes, they are blotted out..one by one as they die unsaved.
quote:
Remember the book of life / judgment power is passed to Christ. Do not forget that. I'm afraid I must have forgotten it already. Where do you find judgment being "passed" to Christ? He has been judging from the beginning. We see in John 5:22 all judgment has been given to the Lord Jesus. Or, as we see in John 9:39 "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."
2 Timothy 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
Romans 2:16
This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
quote:
All mankind has their name written in the Book of Life; and as they die unsaved, their names are blotted out. One by one...blotted out so that by the end of time, both “books” will have the same names in them. The Lamb’s Book contained all those named to be saved from before the foundation of the world. The Book of Life would have had blotted out all names of those who never became saved. There will, in effect, be "one" book left.
Again, two become 1...
_____________________________
Christian Faith
Being What YOU Are
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 1:42:57 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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Willfull sin... I would submit willfull sin is the knowledge that it is wrong yet live continuously in it. Sin and forgiveness goes to sin that is committed and then repented from. You guys are mocking it yet it is in the bible says "willfull sin has no sacrifice for it". That means you cant call yourself a born again christian and live a carnal wicked life.
Jesus doesn't rescind gifts people you are 100% right. You kick a gift horse in the mouth when you continue to sin. Jesus offers you the gift of salvation, you are not taking the gift of salvation by continuing to live in sin. "Oh I'll take that gift of salvation, but that doesn't mean that I have to obey your laws Jesus".
Someone said that we are all children of God, yes but there are 2 types of children under God mentioned in the bible. Children and Illegitimate Children. Look what happens to the latter.
That is the point raivyne is trying to make, you don't "lose" your salvation as in "God takes it away". You walk away from it, you shove it back in the Face of Christ who died for your sin. That is what she is saying. I submit your "loss" or lack thereof in salvation is your doing not Christ's.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:23:14 PM
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disciplelife
Posts: 60
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:Mannamuncher
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
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You lost me here !!!!
I figured it might be a lot for you to absorb at one time, just take your time to read the information in the post slower, have your Bible open to Romans, take notes if needed and don't hesitate to ask for help.
I was being polite friend...
As was I.
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You did not exegete any pasages
More than one study that I have posted could be considered an exegesis, but most just draw blank stares, because there are no responses to those. What I witness, mostly, is eisegesis from others.
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WADR...you are a newb on the boards. Been on a forum B4 ?
WADR? ...a slur I am assuming. New to these boards, yes.
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You called someone a 12 year old
Yes... attacking an avatar due to lack of a credible response to a logical exegesis? I stand corrected, the TOS requires a minimum age of 13.
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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with online posting etiquette?
Do you really want to tread there? 
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Back to topic !!!
Do you understand what an ETERNAL inheritance is ?
What accepted in The Beloved is ?
And God beginning and ending His work of salvation ?
I have attempted to answer these, and many other, questions in this thread and others, to no avail. A blind eye was turned to them and the onslaught continued. I am truly sorry, but I can not, and will not have someone attempt to pound reformist theology into my head. My thoughts are already developed on these matters. If their were to be a "spirited" discussion, if you will, then I would be on board. What I have experienced is a lopsided thrashing of those who don't follow what you, and a select few here, believe. If someone were to bring about sound Biblical doctrine, maybe backed up with an infusion of true translations from the ancient manuscripts, then we would have something. I would never force my thoughts, ideas or opinions on another human being and would appreciate the same treatment.
Your brother in Christ (Jesus said so!  )
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:48:12 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
quote:
quote:Mannamuncher
Back to topic !!!
Do you understand what an ETERNAL inheritance is ?
What accepted in The Beloved is ?
And God beginning and ending His work of salvation ?
I have attempted to answer these, and many other, questions in this thread and others, to no avail. A blind eye was turned to them and the onslaught continued. I am truly sorry, but I can not, and will not have someone attempt to pound reformist theology into my head. My thoughts are already developed on these matters. If their were to be a "spirited" discussion, if you will, then I would be on board. What I have experienced is a lopsided thrashing of those who don't follow what you, and a select few here, believe. If someone were to bring about sound Biblical doctrine, maybe backed up with an infusion of true translations from the ancient manuscripts, then we would have something. I would never force my thoughts, ideas or opinions on another human being and would appreciate the same treatment.
Your brother in Christ (Jesus said so! )
You didn't answer any questions...this is a dialogue/discussion forum !!!
As for positional propensities...you are ONLY making assumptions.
You're mad b/c most folk here are intolerant of sinless perfection.
Can you tell us how someone can "lose" their salvation ? Thanks-
If you believe in sinless perfection...I guess they couldn't...
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:50:26 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
quote:
quote:Mannamuncher
WADR...you are a newb on the boards. Been on a forum B4 ?
WADR? ...a slur I am assuming. New to these boards, yes.
WADR = With All Due Respect
Don't you feel embarassed by your hostile, unloving attiude ?
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:59:51 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
That is the point raivyne is trying to make, you don't "lose" your salvation as in "God takes it away". You walk away from it, you shove it back in the Face of Christ who died for your sin. That is what she is saying. I submit your "loss" or lack thereof in salvation is your doing not Christ's.
Same outcome...what's the difference ?
Can you provide example of this in The Bible ?
That is, God taking back His eternal gift !!!
And what's this "give it back" teaching ? Who teaches that ?
Again, please show an illustration form The Holy Writ !
I think you are confusing people that NEVER were saved with
a believer. They left b/c they never were one of us (1 John 2:19 ).
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 5:49:43 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Willfull sin... I would submit willfull sin is the knowledge that it is wrong yet live continuously in it. Sin and forgiveness goes to sin that is committed and then repented from. You guys are mocking it yet it is in the bible says "willfull sin has no sacrifice for it". That means you cant call yourself a born again christian and live a carnal wicked life.
Harsh words...that we are MOCKING God !!! 
Looks like you are into Hebrews 6 for direction-
So let's take a gander at it...
Hebrews 6:1-6 (King James Version)
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
First and foremost, this is not to the elect of God.
We are dealing with The Jews, new converts, babes.
The principle here is retrogression; going backwards.
We should be advancing, growing, maturing in Christ.
Is this apostacy real or potential ?
Is it a kick in the pants, an admonition ?
Remember Matthew 7, that there are people who
are wolves in sheep's clothing. They look godly-
There are people in pews who appear religious,
but they are not in The Kingdom of God.
Nothing can be done for those who have seen
things (been enlightened), know and been
exposed to Heavenly things (tasted heavenly gift).
And what would one "fall back" to ? WORKS ?
Good luck with that...but The Jews were used
to this mindset and entirely comfortable with it.
Now, to the crucifying afresh/anew/again.
Once at the end of the ages to do away
with sin by the sacrifice of Himself...
Why would someone want to re-crucify Jesus ?
They don't...they don't believe in THE crucifixion.
They crucify Jesus as a common malefactor.
Not as Savior, but the meaningless death of a man.
Putting Jesus to shame by denying He is God's Son.
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 10:33:46 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Willfull sin... I would submit willfull sin is the knowledge that it is wrong yet live continuously in it. Sin and forgiveness goes to sin that is committed and then repented from. You guys are mocking it yet it is in the bible says "willfull sin has no sacrifice for it". That means you cant call yourself a born again christian and live a carnal wicked life.
quote:
Harsh words...that we are MOCKING God !!!
I looked at posts above and the tone I get from others that see this verse seem to just disregard it, and then turn around and become harsh in their rebutts. This verse is plain as day. What makes the Jews practices any different from ours. We are one body not a bunch of bodies. We are goverened by 1 God same commandments. The Jews that have turned to | | |
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