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measuring up - 7/27/2008 8:29:03 PM
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lizemv
Posts: 1
Joined: 7/27/2008
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I am one who probably thinks things through to the point where a theoritical decision regarding "believing" is difficult. So difficult that I cannot bring myself to commitment to Christianity. For instance: how can I commit to a belief system that says that if you are not saved that you are essentially not welcome in the kingdom. What about those people (too mentally incompetant to understand, too young to grasp or like myself too questioning) who are either unable or not yet able to find salvation and are therefore ineligible. How can I come to grips with the notion that my brother who was gay and died gay, is therefore ineligible but, myself, because I am heterosexual will be welcome. These questions and many more stand firmly between me and my salvation. I am thoroughly convinced that I am a good person who practices many of the tenents outlined in scripture. I am equally convinced that entry into the kingdom is through ones good work and not necessarily through the fear and control defined in my questions.
J
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RE: measuring up - 7/27/2008 8:42:37 PM
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Lufia
Posts: 187
Joined: 5/25/2008
From: Canada, quebec province
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Jesus is the only way to the Kingdom and good works have nothing to do with it because nobody is without sins and we must repent. No sins are in heaven and the only way to be forgiven is Jesus. Nothing else.
_____________________________
Give your life to Jesus and enjoy the ride!
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RE: measuring up - 7/27/2008 8:47:47 PM
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Neeva_Candida
Posts: 119
Joined: 7/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lizemv
I am one who probably thinks things through to the point where a theoritical decision regarding "believing" is difficult. So difficult that I cannot bring myself to commitment to Christianity. For instance: how can I commit to a belief system that says that if you are not saved that you are essentially not welcome in the kingdom. What about those people (too mentally incompetant to understand, too young to grasp or like myself too questioning) who are either unable or not yet able to find salvation and are therefore ineligible. How can I come to grips with the notion that my brother who was gay and died gay, is therefore ineligible but, myself, because I am heterosexual will be welcome. These questions and many more stand firmly between me and my salvation. I am thoroughly convinced that I am a good person who practices many of the tenents outlined in scripture. I am equally convinced that entry into the kingdom is through ones good work and not necessarily through the fear and control defined in my questions.
J
I'm not sure what you mean by "a theoritical decision". I'm not referring to the spelling.
Everyone is "welcome". However there are conditions. You seem to at least recognize that much. What value would there be if there were no conditions? Why would God have gone to so much effort for us (death on a cross) if He simply was going to let everyone in regardless of their decisions or behavior?
As for those that are incapable of making a decision there are all kinds of opinions. Many scriptures seem to address this issue but not much in the way of agreement has surfaced. I simply trust God to be Just.
Your brother was not excluded because he was gay. You are not included because you are heterosexual. The conditions are the same for everyone. The Bible tells us that we are all guilty before God. Some of us have more visible sin issues perhaps but we all carry the same judgement before salvation.
You say you are a good person. A lot of people think this. However what are you using to make this assessment. Your definition of good or God's. Keep in mind that only His will be important on the day of judgement. An interesting little object lesson on our "goodness" can be found here:
Are you a good person?
In the end we can do nothing to "earn" our salvation. We must follow God's plan.
~Neeva
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RE: measuring up - 7/27/2008 9:29:28 PM
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Lars-ap-Drw
Posts: 2
Joined: 7/24/2008
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Hello, Liz.
I also have daily wars between my "rational" mind, and my believing heart. On that, I can only tell you that once you truly have faith, once you truly and honestly give your life to Christ, you're in God's grace forever, and salvation comes from grace alone, never by works.
As far as your brother, who told you he couldn't be saved? Gay people have as much right to salvation as anyone else. Though homosexuality isn't in God's relationship design, he offers his gift of grace to any who believe.
Young children, and those who are not competant enough to know right from wrong are already offered God's grace. As to being too questioning, God gave us free will. I guess it just comes down to faith in the end.
Read your bible. If someone tries to convince you of a doctrine that isn't in the bible, don't listen. Read the new testament especially, but every book has something to offer, and you'll see something new every time you read it. I was always told to begin with Acts, read through to Revelation, then read the gospels, finishing with the old testament. But, however you choose to do it, read it. If you don't have anyone who is strong in the faith and well-versed in the bible, then I recommend a study bible, where every passage is explained in detail. My personal favorite in the "Life Application Study Bible," available at most major bookstores for about $25.00 in the U.S.
Think of salvation like this, if it helps: suppose someone gave you a brand new Lexus or Cadilac, no strings attatched, just for believing they exist. That's grace; a free gift from God, promising eternal life to any who believe. What better gift could there be? And remember: grace is available to ANYONE and EVERYONE. Just ask Christ into your heart.
Hope this helps.
LaD
_____________________________
Henceforth, let no man trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
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RE: measuring up - 7/27/2008 9:44:35 PM
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slushie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 4/30/2006
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It's not fear and control.
It's not good works alone. It's not being a "good" person.
It's through grace.
That's all I'll say. I really like what LaD said.
_____________________________
Testify to Love
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RE: measuring up - 7/28/2008 12:42:43 AM
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LCannon
Posts: 1259
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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Rather then keying in on our performance that is never 'good enough' anyway('He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.'-Jim Elliot-)the eternal issue is appropriation(claiming for oneself)Jesus' sacrifice/obedience/Victory. Regarding your brother, the young or others circumstances? The Eternal God judges a person through the rose covered glass of His Son's atoning Blood for He recognizes one of His saint and welcome's him come to Glory. The risk is borne by the individual.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: measuring up - 7/28/2008 1:44:56 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1894
Joined: 9/26/2007
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Welcome, Lizemv!
quote:
ORIGINAL: lizemv
I am one who probably thinks things through to the point where a theoritical decision regarding "believing" is difficult. So difficult that I cannot bring myself to commitment to Christianity.
Actually, it's not so theoretical. God had a bunch of people write down what He told them to write: He told us what was the most important thing on His heart: a deliverer was coming, first mentioned in Genesis 3, and promised all the way through 4000 years of the Bible. At least 25 different people, from shepherds to kings wrote under His inspiration, and they all agreed (try getting any 25 people to agree on anything and you'll see what a miracle *that* is  ): God was sending someone to rescue us, and He gave us all kinds of ways to know who is would be.
The story climaxes with Jesus, who fulfilled everyone of those things God said the deliverer would be: born of a virgin, born in Bethlehem, of a certain family line, and so on, over 200 things. Hard to fake, and hard to manipulate where you'll be born and to whom.
Jesus did miracles (also hard to fake), but He made the incredible claim to be God (really hard to fake). He said that sin would be judged by one thing: whether people believed in Him. John 16: 8,9 - don't take my word for it but look it up.
Believe *what* about Jesus? He said He was God. He said they'd kill Him and three days later He would rise from the dead (terribly hard to fake). But He did, and over 500 people saw Him after seeing Him die (tortured to death. It's hard to look healthy three days after that). It turned cowards into people whom prison and death couldn't shut up. And He said when He died He took the penalty of our sin on Him (sin demands death to pay for it) and He rose from the dead to prove the sin was paid for - it was forgiven so death itself died. Sin is gone, death is gone. Our bodies will die, just like Jesus' did, but there's a second death at judgement and we live through that. Like loved children.
So every person has a choice: is Jesus God and did His death pay for sin? Convince yourself, Lizemv. Don't take my word for it. Read the Bible. Use the laws of courtroom evidence on it and see how it holds up. Simon Greenleaf, one of America's great lawyers and an atheist, did this and was convinced that Jesus was who He said He was.
The Bible lists all kinds of bad people, and then says the most amazing thing - let me quote it:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11
All people who are Christians are bad people who believed in God. And He did something miraculous in their hearts and heads and started cleaning them up. He tells us to love one another. He tells us to stop being so selfish. He makes us more like Him as we try to do it. Awesome.
Obviously He doesn't do it all at once, but He leads us along like the cripples we are, one step at a time. And He changes us from the inside out. That's why in Christian circles you find ex-homosexuals, ex-adulterers, ex- you name it. Like me. I'm a sinner, and God has forgiven me and is changing me. I'm not perfect (ask my teenager!) but I'm different than I was a year ago. I'm really different than I was before I believed at first.
quote:
I am thoroughly convinced that I am a good person who practices many of the tenents outlined in scripture. I am equally convinced that entry into the kingdom is through ones good work and not necessarily through the fear and control defined in my questions.
J
God tells us we were all born hopelessly selfish, hurting others, and hating God. He says the blood of Jesus washes our sin away and we can go to heaven. It's nothing we can do - we come with empty hands. Jesus did it all, and He wants you to know that. And believe it.
It's incredibly freeing. God knows what a scr*wup I am, because that's where I was when He got me. But He is teaching me and I try to do what He asks: love others, don't take revenge (because that's His job), be honest, and so on. When I fall down, He forgives me and helps me get up and keep walking. And He loves me. Wow.
I hope this helps. Blessings on you, Lizemv.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: measuring up - 7/28/2008 8:45:17 AM
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mvic
Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/17/2008
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No one is excluded.
God has invited us all to love Him and to obey His commandments. All we have to do is believe in Him, and believe that Jesus is His Son, who died for us and was raised from the dead. (See details in the Bible).
Now then: this invitation to love and to believe is made to us without any coercion whatsoever. It is our free choice. To love or not. To believe or not.
Or to exclude ourselves or not.
As for the mentally incompetent and the too young - don't worry about them. God has already taken care of them because He loves them just as much as He loves you.
He's waiting for a reply from you to His invitation.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
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RE: measuring up - 7/28/2008 11:50:15 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1894
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline
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Thanks for the reminder, PureLight.
I am an ex-idolator. God has forgiven me, washed me, and leads me in His way. Praise Him forever!!! <we need a "dancing for joy" emoticon>
(And if you think idolatry isn't so bad, read Ezekiel: the whole book is about how God is going to trash the entire nation of Israel for the sin of idolatry. Kill them with famine and pestilence in the city, kill them with the sword in the countryside, and haul any survivors off to slavery in Babylon. But it also includes the 37th chapter, that foretells how God will later rescue them. But still).
< Message edited by deermousie -- 7/28/2008 11:56:34 AM >
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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Evidence right here that anyone can be washed clean.
