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shifting beliefs - 4/28/2008 4:14:40 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 68
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
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I don't wish to stir something up here, but perhaps bring a new topic to the table for input.. New to the CW community but not new to faith,
am middle-aged. OK the rest of the issue.
Over the past couple years my view of God and faith have changed somewhat. I am not so comfortable to say God in 3 persons,i.e.,
blessed Trinity, (see hymn titled Holy Holy Holy) but God more as someone that cannot be explained into human terms, because than God ceases to be God in the truest sense. Kind of like Abraham and Isaac when Isaac was to be offered as a sacrifice, one was not independent of the other, or Jesus on the cross, God died for our sins..
HMMM I can imagine a couple of you sat right up on that one!
Are their "believers" who may not define the trinity in such defined strictures, and if so are they regarded as unorthydox?
Now to the issue of faith. I have a friend who is Jewish and she has opened my eyes to the idea of faith as not being passive, but action oriented. Standing firm, I believe she says to define it and think the word is something like "emunah." So a conscious decision has to be made to exercise standing firm, not just something one does like snapping their fingers. You think that one who takes their faith serious is allowd to have wiggle room? I really am glad to be here and look forward to comments on this.
David
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/28/2008 4:36:22 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 807
Joined: 11/8/2007
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You are on the right track. I would suggest that you not just accept the easy answers without question. It is in the "hard sayings" that we find the greatest lessons. Some see me as a bit tedious and a broken record, but I would suggest you follow the Shema(Duet 6). Keep the words of Adonai on your heart and teach it to your children at every opportunity. Also, Paul advises us to study to show ourselve approved workmen that need not be ashamed rightly dividing truth from falsehood.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/28/2008 9:34:54 PM
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Papa-san
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I absolutely agree that we are called to have an active (I call it a 'living') faith. One of the greatest mistakes a person can make in regards to faith, is to take someone else's word on it. I believe that we have been called to examine all things through the lens of scripture by the Light of the Spirit of God.
The idea and description of the Trinity is just an attempt by man to try and quantify something that is really non-quantifiable. We know that these facets of the Almighty exist, yet they are parts of a whole that is truly beyond the grasp of our finite minds.
I believe that once we begin to ask these hard questions, that our journey to follow Christ has just begun. We get curious, we search, we find some answers. Those don't completely satisfy, so the thirst grows. Our God is so amazing! He has designed us with a God-shaped hole at the core of our being, and nothing we try to fill it with does the job... until we begin the process of filling it with our discoveries of Him! This isn't like popping in a cork: *pOOf* it's full... it's like filling a deep hole with a teaspoon. It's a process, and we won't ever finish the job in this life...
As far as 'wiggle room', I guess it depends on what that really means. Are we able to do things against our conscience, or is what we 'know' able to change? The answer is yes, to both. Our spiritual life is a relationship, not a rulebook. Just like any relationship, things are going to change. Our duty is to make sure all these changes are for the betterment of this relationship, and I believe the scriptures and prayer are what we must use to make this successful.
I like your questions! Thanks for them!
Welcome to Crosswalk!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/28/2008 9:47:54 PM
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bsjones84
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God indeed exists in the Trinity. There is only one God though, who has revealed Himself to humanity in three ways (Father, Son, Holy Ghost). These are the terms the bible uses to explain Him. This is similar to the mathematical equation 1x1x1=1. There are three ones, but you end up with one. It's the same one shown three times. The Trinity is God showing Himself to humanity in three distinct personalities, or forms. Another way I understand it is that God the Father is somewhat like homebase. This is God that has always existed, before time, before all. God the Son (Jesus Christ) is God manifested in the flesh, or God in human form. Since it was necessary for Jesus to die and go back to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father, we have the Comforter, God the Holy Ghost, who leads us daily in truth and righteousness.
I agree with the point about faith not being passive. Faith requires action. Another way to say it is that behavior reflects faith, or what you believe. If you truly believe something, you will act, behave, conduct yourself accordingly, which reflects that value, or belief. If I believe my vehicle will take me to work, I get in that vehicle and proceed to drive to work. However, if I didn't truly believe that my vehicle could get me to work, I wouldn't rely on it to get me to work. I can either find another way on which to rely, or test it out to prove whether or not it is reliable. This is why John the Baptist told the Pharisees to bring forth fruit meet for repentance. He wasn't saying they had to work for salvation and righteousness, which is what the pharisees tried to do; he was saying show me behavior that reflects, or agrees with the faith statement of repentance. In other words, you say you are righteous, but your behavior contradicts you; so show me behavior that agrees and reflects righteousness then I'll believe you are righteous. James said faith without works is dead. If you don't have the works then you don't have the faith. If we did have the faith, it would be evident in our behaviors and lifestyles.
Bub,
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/29/2008 1:15:29 PM
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mariadreamer
Posts: 353
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I agree that faith is dynamic. But it is dynamic in the sense that it is a relationship with a real living God and not just a set of mental propositions. Historically, the Church from the early times guarded very carefully the faith "once and for all delivered to the saints" because Christ is not just an abstract idea but a real person. He is what He is and He is not what He is not. When one worships a "Christ" that is very different from the Christ as the Church has always experienced Him, that one worships a different "Christ", namely one that doesn't really exist. If you look at history, the people of faith always took great care to preserve the correct understanding of God and what he expects of us as He has revealed Himself to His people. Many Christians died for the right belief and several Ecumenical Councils were called to work out certain doctrines that were being challenged by heretics. Those decisions do not explain EVERYTHING there is to know about God by any means, but in a way draw a fence around what is considered the true experience of God. It is crucially important because heresies were putting people's salvation at risk. I agree with what you are saying that God is not completely knowable. In the Eastern Church, this has always been held, something we call "Apophatic theology". However, certain things God has revealed to us. Look at the history of the Church, and see how the understanding of the Holy Trinity was unfolded and guarded.
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/29/2008 4:42:25 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 68
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
I agree that faith is dynamic. But it is dynamic in the sense that it is a relationship with a real living God and not just a set of mental propositions. Historically, the Church from the early times guarded very carefully the faith "once and for all delivered to the saints" because Christ is not just an abstract idea but a real person. He is what He is and He is not what He is not. When one worships a "Christ" that is very different from the Christ as the Church has always experienced Him, that one worships a different "Christ", namely one that doesn't really exist. If you look at history, the people of faith always took great care to preserve the correct understanding of God and what he expects of us as He has revealed Himself to His people. Many Christians died for the right belief and several Ecumenical Councils were called to work out certain doctrines that were being challenged by heretics. Those decisions do not explain EVERYTHING there is to know about God by any means, but in a way draw a fence around what is considered the true experience of God. It is crucially important because heresies were putting people's salvation at risk. I agree with what you are saying that God is not completely knowable. In the Eastern Church, this has always been held, something we call "Apophatic theology". However, certain things God has revealed to us. Look at the history of the Church, and see how the understanding of the Holy Trinity was unfolded and guarded.
Hi, see my post shifted from one forum to where it probably belongs :) Thanks for the input!! Maria dreamer uses the phrase "guarded the faith" I have heard 2 sides to that story. One side says the church guarded as in protected the faith, another side says the church changed the faith in the 2nd century and things really went to heck after that through the middle ages. I suppose the truth is somewhere in the middle. I will say this, in the last 2 years things I hear on radio or from the pulpit aren't taken at face value anymore. Even the Apostles Creed which is recited week after week where I attend, fails to mention anything of the earthly life experience of Jesus. I like the point about the relationship being formed and fostered, and thanks to each of you for giving me support here and input, much appreciated folks!
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/29/2008 11:11:32 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1981
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Over the past couple years my view of God and faith have changed somewhat.
You should ask yourself why your views changed, and what influenced those changes. God is unchanging, and His truth cannot and does not change. So either you had the truth to begin with, and allowed unbiblical influences to shake your faith, or you were not well-grounded to begin with and are being swayed by certain "winds of doctrine" because of this. Many Christians are not well-grounded, since they are fed milk and pablum instead of meat and solid food.
quote:
I am not so comfortable to say God in 3 persons,i.e.,
blessed Trinity, (see hymn titled Holy Holy Holy) but God more as someone that cannot be explained into human terms, because than God ceases to be God in the truest sense.
What makes you think that God in three Persons is explainable in human terms, while God in four or five or six persons is more in keeping with the mystery of God? The triune Godhead is a complete mystery. No man can explain it. Christians must simply believe it. And the reason for that is because God has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- one God, three Persons. This is not something made up by Church Councils, but it is embedded in Scripture -- "Let US make man in OUR image".
quote:
Kind of like Abraham and Isaac when Isaac was to be offered as a sacrifice, one was not independent of the other, or Jesus on the cross, God died for our sins...
Not sure what this means. Abraham was distinct from Isaac just as the Father is distinct from the Son. Indeed, Isaac "the only begotten son" as a sacrifice was a type of Christ, where Abraham was a type of the Father.
quote:
HMMM I can imagine a couple of you sat right up on that one!
Are their "believers" who may not define the trinity in such defined strictures, and if so are they regarded as unorthydox?
"Believers" by definition believe in the trinue Godhead, since that is what Scripture teaches. So those who reject or question this truth must of necessity be "unorthodox" if not heretical.
quote:
Now to the issue of faith. I have a friend who is Jewish and she has opened my eyes to the idea of faith as not being passive, but action oriented. Standing firm, I believe she says to define it and think the word is something like "emunah." So a conscious decision has to be made to exercise standing firm, not just something one does like snapping their fingers.
Faith is simply trusting and believing God and His Word. When we stand fast on Scripture, we exercise faith. When we trust in the Living God even though we are sorely afflicted, we exercise faith. Faith is less a matter of "action" and more a matter of "trusting". Often, trusting means being still and knowing that He is God.
quote:
You think that one who takes their faith serious is allowd to have wiggle room? I really am glad to be here and look forward to comments on this. David
As far as Bible doctrine goes, there is no "wiggle room". Truth is Truth. As far as sinning goes, there is no "wiggle room". We are to be holy as God is holy (easier said than done). So what exactly would you be having in mind?
"Shifting beliefs" can be likened to "shifting sand". Not a very firm foundation on which to build your house. Christ gave us a parable in this regard. Study it.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/29/2008 11:17:38 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/30/2008 9:54:45 AM
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timf
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Joined: 10/20/2006
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So a conscious decision has to be made to exercise standing firm, not just something one does like snapping their fingers.
Ephesians 6:13-18
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
The above verses describe a type of relationship between "standing" and faith. Faith might be seen as being active in "deactiviating" things of Satan or the world such as doubts, temptations, and allures.
Consider to what a great extent the Christian has turned his "faith" away from his Lord to the things of the world.
1. Education
2. Employment
3. Retirement
4. Insurance
5. Possessions
6. Government
7. Position
Often the Christian has no "shield" left to raise. His "standing" may only be a collapse of defeat.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 4/30/2008 12:12:45 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 68
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
So a conscious decision has to be made to exercise standing firm, not just something one does like snapping their fingers.
Ephesians 6:13-18
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
The above verses describe a type of relationship between "standing" and faith. Faith might be seen as being active in "deactiviating" things of Satan or the world such as doubts, temptations, and allures.
Consider to what a great extent the Christian has turned his "faith" away from his Lord to the things of the world.
1. Education
2. Employment
3. Retirement
4. Insurance
5. Possessions
6. Government
7. Position
Often the Christian has no "shield" left to raise. His "standing" may only be a collapse of defeat.
Ezra, perhaps changing instead of shifting would have been a better adjective to describe what's going on. I don't see it as negative as your response indicates but maturing hopefully. Tim, I like the Ephesians passage you post, verbs like stand, take, gird or put on, seem to illustrate the concept of faith. Your 7 citations of what we, in the good old USA do to "protect ourselves" is something to think about very carefully. At any rate, on Messiah the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand." Maria dreamer who brought up the idea of 2 or multiple Jesus's being ascribed to, is a new an interesting concept to me, or if not new, resurfacing in such sources as Time Magazine, recent comments by Rev Jeremiah Wright, and folk in churches who observe "your God/Jesus is different from mine because ... That we may know Him, is my prayer for self and you and all who claim to follow our LORD. Blessings to you!
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/1/2008 10:20:59 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
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I don't think your faith is 'shifting'. What I am picking up here seems to be the addition of a bit more 'meat' into your spiritual diet, as Ezra mentioned. Too many people just coast along for years doing the 'church thing' with no real growth to what starts as a pretty vestigial faith. You are being opened to more truth. This is a good thing!
Stay grounded in the Word of God, and you cannot go wrong!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/3/2008 2:52:56 PM
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figmentPez
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From: TX
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To those who deny the triune nature of God, I provide these questions:
For those who believe that God is only one person, and not three, I ask this:
Who do YOU say that the Son of Man is?
Daniel 7:13-14
13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Read this passage and tell me who the Son of Man is. Please be detailed, and make sure that any terms you use in your reply are clearly defined by your answer. Also, answer these questions: Who is the Ancient of Days? Does the Son of Man deserve what He receives in this passage? Why or why not? Do you see any parallels between this passage and Revelation chapter 5?
For those who claim that God could be more than three, then I make this request: Show me where another person of God is revealed. Show me where there is another besides the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who is treated by scripture in the same was as these three, such that they are definitively shown to have the qualities of a "person" (as defined by theological usage) and are shown to be distinct from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I'll give you a hint, you won't find any others in scripture who are definitively the LORD, but are also shown to be distinct from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Don't try to claim that there might be more that aren't revealed in scripture, either. Jesus Christ said that to know Him was to know the Father as well, and that He came to reveal God to humanity. If you believe that there is another that exists that we do not know by knowing Jesus Christ, then that would mean that this "other" was not the LORD.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/3/2008 3:06:19 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2659
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bsjones84
God indeed exists in the Trinity. There is only one God though, who has revealed Himself to humanity in three ways (Father, Son, Holy Ghost). These are the terms the bible uses to explain Him. This is similar to the mathematical equation 1x1x1=1. There are three ones, but you end up with one. It's the same one shown three times. The Trinity is God showing Himself to humanity in three distinct personalities, or forms. Another way I understand it is that God the Father is somewhat like homebase. This is God that has always existed, before time, before all. God the Son (Jesus Christ) is God manifested in the flesh, or God in human form. Since it was necessary for Jesus to die and go back to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father, we have the Comforter, God the Holy Ghost, who leads us daily in truth and righteousness.
What you are teaching here is NOT trinitarian doctrine, and it does not line up with what scripture teaches about God.
First, trintiarian doctrine teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternal. The Son of God is not just God manifest in the flesh, the Son of God is eternally God, and existed with the Father before creation. The God that has always existed is not just the Father, but the Son and the Holy Spirit as well.
Second, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are how God relates to God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit each relate to humanity as well, but their identity is defined by their eternal nature, not by how they relate to creation. God does not change.
Next, your "mathematical" eqation has no logical basis. While multiplying ones really does result in one, there is no logical reason to explain why to choose multiplication. In fact, addition is perfectly correct. 1 + 1 + 1 really does equal 1. Why? Lets look at this: 1 tire + 1 tire + 1 tire = 3 tires, but it also equals 1 tricycle. Tires and tricycles are different things, just as persons and God are different values. 1 person + 1 person + 1 person = 3 persons / 1 God. Now of course, the persons of God aren't much like wheels on a tricycle, nor is God simply a math equation, but it certainly has more relation to the truth than arbitrarily saying "multiply" because it gets the answer you want. Having an answer that looks right because you've used the wrong reasons isn't as valuable as having an answer that is right because you've actually arrived at that conclusion by study of scripture.
drussel52,
Have you ever stopped to wonder if what you think is trinitarian doctrine really is trinitarian doctrine? Most of the time, on these forums, when someone comes on these boards claiming that they don't believe in the trinity, they have no idea what Christianity has declared about the triune God. Real trinitarian doctrine is simply a summation of what scripture declares to be true about the revealed nature of God, nothing more. Before you go declaring trinitarian doctrine to be inadequate, maybe you need to study what trinitarian doctrine really is. Far too many Christians are like bsjones84, declaring things that are contrary to scripture because they've never bothered to study.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/10/2008 3:39:51 AM
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pmilst
Posts: 60
Joined: 2/22/2008
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I never read the Word of God to confirm my denominational belief, denominational belief might be in error. I read the Bible to confirm or discover eternal truth, even if that truth at times crosses my traditionally
taught doctrines. Up in this brain of mine there are suppostions based on what I have been taught by my parents, my church, my friends, my culture--much of what I have been taught by them is correct theology, but these traditional beliefs must be confirmed underneath the influence and teaching of the Holy Spirit. Also, in this brain are truths that have been confirmed or new truths that I have discovered by personal indepth Bible study. The goal in my life is to have no suppositions based on traditions and be settled-grounded in belief confirmed by the Holy Spirit.
If I must change a belief to allign my self with real Biblical truth, then change I must. If shifting beliefs move me to correct Biblical view, then I will be labeled "Shifting". Remember to change very slowly, because there are few things worse than unlearning, to relearn, only to unlearn again, because what you learned the second time was wrong.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/10/2008 9:55:41 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2641
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Gen 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground....16 When the men got up to leave....
Ex 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Genesis 32:29 Then Jacob asked him and said, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for {he said,} " I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
It is so easy to just accept the concept that He "has revealed Himself to humanity in three ways." However, reading my Bible, He has revealed Himself in many ways, with the above being just a beginning. The idea of a mere "three ways," cutting Him down to a mere sure number, especially when He clearly says He is One, makes me very uncomfortable. He is far beyond our silly little mathematical symbols and concepts.
When G-d becomes that easy to explain, we have tethered G-d.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/14/2008 5:02:40 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2659
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
It is so easy to just accept the concept that He "has revealed Himself to humanity in three ways." However, reading my Bible, He has revealed Himself in many ways, with the above being just a beginning. The idea of a mere "three ways," cutting Him down to a mere sure number, especially when He clearly says He is One, makes me very uncomfortable. He is far beyond our silly little mathematical symbols and concepts.
I think it's very important to note that trinitarian doctrine does not teach that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are merely different ways that God has revealed Himself to humanity. The manifestations of God to humanity (the burning bush, the fourth man in the fiery furnace, the incarnation of the Son, the Holy Spirit descending as tongues of flame, etc.) are not the same as the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The way scripture describes God's interactions with humanity, how He has manifest Himself to man, is very different than the way that God talks about His eternal and unchanging nature existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and how God relates to God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/14/2008 9:45:12 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 487
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I think it's very important to note that trinitarian doctrine does not teach that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are merely different ways that God has revealed Himself to humanity. The manifestations of God to humanity (the burning bush, the fourth man in the fiery furnace, the incarnation of the Son, the Holy Spirit descending as tongues of flame, etc.) are not the same as the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The way scripture describes God's interactions with humanity, how He has manifest Himself to man, is very different than the way that God talks about His eternal and unchanging nature existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and how God relates to God.
I agree, Pez. Declaring God to be triune does not limit Him in any way. It certainly does not limit the ways He has shown or expressed Himself to us.
And I would argue that the concept of the trinity, of God eternally existing in three persons, is essential to the Christian faith. Otherwise many of Christ's words make no sense. Why would He pray to Himself (Matthew 26:39), or say that He must leave in order than He must send Himself (John 16:5-7). Indeed, if the Trinity is not truth, and yet Christ is still thought of as God (and if someone claims to be a Christian but does not believe in Christ's divinity, well... that's a whole other issue), I would see no other way to take these passages except as Jesus being insane.
_____________________________
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/14/2008 10:16:59 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Joined: 6/8/2005
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I know that the idea of "persons" comes from one of the creeds both the R. Catholic doctrines and most of the protestant doctrines accept. Does anyone know how they came up with the word "persons"? G-d is G-d; the H Spirit is a spirit but G-d; Messiah, while eternal, is now a man or a person but G-d. So how did they come up with "persons"? It appears to me to be G-d, Spirit, and Person who are G-d. What am I missing here? I just don't think He is that easy to quantify.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/15/2008 12:48:00 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 487
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I know that the idea of "persons" comes from one of the creeds both the R. Catholic doctrines and most of the protestant doctrines accept. Does anyone know how they came up with the word "persons"? G-d is G-d; the H Spirit is a spirit but G-d; Messiah, while eternal, is now a man or a person but G-d. So how did they come up with "persons"? It appears to me to be G-d, Spirit, and Person who are G-d. What am I missing here? I just don't think He is that easy to quantify.
I think one of the most important distinctions to make here is that, when speaking of the Trinity, "person" does not mean what we usually make it mean. That is to say, the persons of the Trinity are not, as Dictionary.com so conveniently puts it, "1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child" but rather, "13. Theology. any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Or perhaps even, in a very broad sense, "4. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being." So when the persons of the Trinity are mentioned, it is certainly not in such a narrow way as to imply They are just like us (though of course, in some ways, we are blessedly like God; we can love, we are creative, we are moral, other such things).
Also, your views on God the Father (in your post, G-d) are fascinating. Could you elaborate further on what you believe in this area? : )
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A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/15/2008 2:08:13 PM
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Bluethread
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So, trinitarian definition of person when refering to Adonai is a broad generalization and more conceptual than material. If this is the case, then why is a general understanding and conceptualization of Adonai as one being manifesting Himself in several ways that we can relate to so repugnant?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/15/2008 2:19:08 PM
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JesKlu
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The Trinity is kindof hard to explain, but it is revealed in the scriptures. God is Trinity, but still only one God. Trinity in Unity, and Unity in Trinity. I do have a couple of ways to explain.
St Patrick, when he went to Ireland to convert unbelievers, he explained the Trinity using a three-leaf clover. There is only one clover, but three leaves. There is only One God, but three divine persons.
Another, more modern example is H2O. H2O exists in 3 states, liquid (water), solid (ice), and gas (steam). But they are all H20. Same goes with the Trinity. All three persons are One God.
About those who do not confess the Trinity, they are unorthodox, and I wouldn't even say they are Christian. It is a heresy called Modulism. If I spelled that right.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/15/2008 2:27:59 PM
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Bluethread
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JesKlu:
As others have, you give analogies and state that trinitarianism is "revealed in the scriptures". But, where is it written that Adonai is three persons. The Shema(Duet 6) clearly states thatAdonai is one and Yeshua(Jess) clearly says, "The Father and I are one." So what is wrong with seeing Adonai in this way?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/15/2008 4:05:05 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 495
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
JesKlu:
As others have, you give analogies and state that trinitarianism is "revealed in the scriptures". But, where is it written that Adonai is three persons. The Shema(Duet 6) clearly states thatAdonai is one and Yeshua(Jess) clearly says, "The Father and I are one." So what is wrong with seeing Adonai in this way?
Hello Bluethread!
John 14:15-17
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)
Jesus, in just these 3 sentences, is talking about Himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Obviously God is one, but in three divine persons, as these few sentences reveal. Any oneness teaching is heresy.
The Athanasian Creed.
(The Athanasian Creed is a very clear definition of the Trinity.)
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 5/15/2008 4:28:12 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 807
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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This passage does not say they are distinct persons. This could be what might be called an anthropamorphism, presentation of something that is not specifically human in human terms. As this discussion shows, we have a hard time understanding the mystery of Adonai's nature. Therefore, it might be best if we focus on what Adonai expects from us, rather than insist that others have the same image of Him as we do, unless that image directly effects what is expected of us. This might be "the spirit" of the commandment against graven images. They tend to limit, in our eyes, the limitless creator.
Regarding the creed, creeds are not Scripture but means of reinforcing doctrine. If the doctrine is correct, they are useful for that purpose. However, they do not serve as proof of a doctrine. I personnally do not accept all of the tenets of that creed.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 5/15/2008 4:38:08 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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